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The 2025 Coral Gold Cup (Handicap Chase)
- Thread starter Ian_Davies
- Start date
Generous1991
Amateur Rider
Hyland for me.
He looks well weighted on his form against Resplendent Grey (accepting the risk that I don't know how much that one has improved) and Katate Dori.
His creditable second to Jukebox Man in the Kauto Star looks a little more creditable now.
He looks well weighted on his form against Resplendent Grey (accepting the risk that I don't know how much that one has improved) and Katate Dori.
His creditable second to Jukebox Man in the Kauto Star looks a little more creditable now.
Why not, I should say? There's nothing wrong with picking up a 150k prize on the way to bigger things.
Yes, we don't know how Lecky will measure up against the older stayers but, whichever way you look at it, the Browns is a top class staying race.
With that in mind, stepping into a handicap with 11-6 looks good. I'll always be fancying graded horses in handicaps and I think this looks a very fair weight indeed.
The going will be crucial if we listen to Henderson:
24th Nov Chelt 3m Good
You'd be wanting the rain to stay away, wouldn't you.
Generous1991
Amateur Rider
Yes I would.
Henderson repeated that the other day at the Newbury gallops.
But I would probably still have a go with good to soft, seeing as he didn't do too bad on that ground (and soft in places I think?) at Kempton in Feb behind Karate Dori - actually his highest RPR so far.
Ian_Davies
Conditional
I always take more notice of what the form book indicates a horse wants than in what its trainer reckons a horse wants.
Well, five of his wins have come on Good and two on G/Sft so that fairly conclusive, wouldn't you say?
Ian_Davies
Conditional
It was just a general observation from me - I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing with anyone - I'm superglued to the fence I'm sitting on, sir.
Desert Orchid
Senior Jockey
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2005
- Messages
- 27,894
A lot of work and time but it does strike me as stat-driven, which doesn't appeal to me (but I did at least read it!).
One thing I disagree strongly with is the idea of fewer fences making a race more of a test of speed. It becomes more of a test of stamina as they aren't getting breathers when they jump. It's a bit like the straight mile at Ascot being more of a test of stamina than the round mile where they need to slow down to take the bends and get a chance to fill up.
As for The Changing Man, he might well end up costing me but I have him down as a shiter. I think he'll duck out of a gruelling duel. If he's clear and unchallenged, fair enough, but put him in a dog fight and I reckon he'll show himself to be a dog.
I'm wary of anything rated 148 or more as they'll surely not want to jeopardise any long-term ambitions for the Grand National.
I'll be looking for a potential G1 horse - a second-season novice - getting in off around 140, give or take. Ideally something like Ever Blessed which started the 1999-2000 season off 119 but had been cruising in the lead when falling in the G1 novice race at Aintree - in those days the handicapper couldn't assume how close it would have been at the end but the winner, Spendid, came second to him in the Hennessy itself. Ever Blessed went up from 119 for his seasonal debut and was 10lb 'wrong' in the Hennessy itself but still won.
Phil Smith got a grip in due course and now second-season novices like Ever Blessed wouldn't get a sniff of a mark in the low-130s these days, but I still look for something close.
Strong Flow, off 140 and 2/5f, was running away with the Aintree G1 novice when it fell, got to run in the Hennessy off the same mark and went up to 161 for winning by miles.
That's the type I want. Is there one in the race this year? We shall see.
One thing I disagree strongly with is the idea of fewer fences making a race more of a test of speed. It becomes more of a test of stamina as they aren't getting breathers when they jump. It's a bit like the straight mile at Ascot being more of a test of stamina than the round mile where they need to slow down to take the bends and get a chance to fill up.
As for The Changing Man, he might well end up costing me but I have him down as a shiter. I think he'll duck out of a gruelling duel. If he's clear and unchallenged, fair enough, but put him in a dog fight and I reckon he'll show himself to be a dog.
I'm wary of anything rated 148 or more as they'll surely not want to jeopardise any long-term ambitions for the Grand National.
I'll be looking for a potential G1 horse - a second-season novice - getting in off around 140, give or take. Ideally something like Ever Blessed which started the 1999-2000 season off 119 but had been cruising in the lead when falling in the G1 novice race at Aintree - in those days the handicapper couldn't assume how close it would have been at the end but the winner, Spendid, came second to him in the Hennessy itself. Ever Blessed went up from 119 for his seasonal debut and was 10lb 'wrong' in the Hennessy itself but still won.
Phil Smith got a grip in due course and now second-season novices like Ever Blessed wouldn't get a sniff of a mark in the low-130s these days, but I still look for something close.
Strong Flow, off 140 and 2/5f, was running away with the Aintree G1 novice when it fell, got to run in the Hennessy off the same mark and went up to 161 for winning by miles.
That's the type I want. Is there one in the race this year? We shall see.
Ian_Davies
Conditional
I haven't read it, but did read Maurice's summary.
The notion obstacle removal makes a race less of a test of stamina is one I fundamentally disagree with.
The reason so many horses who don't stay 2m on the Flat get the trip over hurdles is the obstacles slow the pace of the race right down.
Over fences there are even more obstacles per mile, hence pro rata.
Trawlerman clocked 4m15.02s when he won the 2m4f Gold Cup - he covered the distance at a rate of 12.75s per furlong.
The stamina required to do that is immense.
Yet some think that race would suit Constitution Hill, a horse who struggles to get 2m4f at a much more sedate tempo over hurdles.
It's a game of opinions and I'll never tell anyone they are outright just plain WRONG, but this is as close as I'll ever get to saying it.
To paraphrase my all-time favourite former member of Twitter/X, if you think removing obstacles makes a race less of a test of stamina "you know nothing about this game - nothing."
The notion obstacle removal makes a race less of a test of stamina is one I fundamentally disagree with.
The reason so many horses who don't stay 2m on the Flat get the trip over hurdles is the obstacles slow the pace of the race right down.
Over fences there are even more obstacles per mile, hence pro rata.
Trawlerman clocked 4m15.02s when he won the 2m4f Gold Cup - he covered the distance at a rate of 12.75s per furlong.
The stamina required to do that is immense.
Yet some think that race would suit Constitution Hill, a horse who struggles to get 2m4f at a much more sedate tempo over hurdles.
It's a game of opinions and I'll never tell anyone they are outright just plain WRONG, but this is as close as I'll ever get to saying it.
To paraphrase my all-time favourite former member of Twitter/X, if you think removing obstacles makes a race less of a test of stamina "you know nothing about this game - nothing."
Desert Orchid
Senior Jockey
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2005
- Messages
- 27,894
Full disclosure, I took Katate Dori at 16/1 before its disappointing reappearance over hurdles (and it's still only 10s - what might it have been if it had run well?) and 33s and 40s Pic Roc when I saw last week that Pauling appeared to prefer it for this to the pair he sent to the decent graduation chases last weekend, The Jukebox Man (which I'm on at 16s for the King George) and Handstands.
Having slept on my thoughts, I'm now wondering if I'm not seeing the wood for the trees as far as Myretown is concerned?
I'm wondering if Russell regrets winning the G1 novice hurdle at Aintree with Ahoy Senor. A 66/1 shot on the day after taking in a low-level race, it started its novice chasing season on 152 and by the time it took in the Brown Advisory it was up to 157 then 161 for winning the G1 at Aintree. The following season it went up to 169. And this was an inconsistent jumper.
They've played it much cooler with Myretown, restricting it to low level stuff before unleashing it - heavily backed - in the Ultima, traditionally one of the most competitive handicaps of the season off 127, going up 15lbs for spreadeagling a strong field. It's entitled to be at least another 10lbs better this season and it is listed as a possible entry in the Gold Cup. As far as I can see the only other one with that is the top weight Monty's Star (OR 159) and to even think about running in the Gold Cup you have to fancy you have a 160+ horse on your hands.
Is that what they think Myretown is?
If so, he could be the kind of contender I mentioned last night and 5/1 might just look generous shortly after 3pm on Saturday.
Just wondering.
Having slept on my thoughts, I'm now wondering if I'm not seeing the wood for the trees as far as Myretown is concerned?
I'm wondering if Russell regrets winning the G1 novice hurdle at Aintree with Ahoy Senor. A 66/1 shot on the day after taking in a low-level race, it started its novice chasing season on 152 and by the time it took in the Brown Advisory it was up to 157 then 161 for winning the G1 at Aintree. The following season it went up to 169. And this was an inconsistent jumper.
They've played it much cooler with Myretown, restricting it to low level stuff before unleashing it - heavily backed - in the Ultima, traditionally one of the most competitive handicaps of the season off 127, going up 15lbs for spreadeagling a strong field. It's entitled to be at least another 10lbs better this season and it is listed as a possible entry in the Gold Cup. As far as I can see the only other one with that is the top weight Monty's Star (OR 159) and to even think about running in the Gold Cup you have to fancy you have a 160+ horse on your hands.
Is that what they think Myretown is?
If so, he could be the kind of contender I mentioned last night and 5/1 might just look generous shortly after 3pm on Saturday.
Just wondering.
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tiggers1972
Senior Jockey
Myretown/Hyland for me
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
If I'm a British owner/trainer I'd just forget about the National. Mullins just dominates it with Grade 2 chasers who aren't even well handicapped. Special carrots etc.
Danny
Journeyman
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- Feb 27, 2013
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- 2,446
I have to say nothing is surprising more than Panic Attacks price holding up in this. Don't get me wrong I thought she had a lot to prove going into the Paddy Power and I didn't think it was the strongest of races but she couldn't have won it any better than she did. Personally I thought she'd be in the first 3 in the betting for this before the 48 hour decs came out but apparently she's friendless.
I don't feel the love for Hyland at all. I look at Resplendant grey and thinking 11lb higher than it won the Whitbread off. Spanish Harlem 16lb higher than his Listowel win. Changing Man you can just say finishes 2nd to whatever wins. There are so many in this race that I just think can't win, plenty of deadwood.
I don't feel the love for Hyland at all. I look at Resplendant grey and thinking 11lb higher than it won the Whitbread off. Spanish Harlem 16lb higher than his Listowel win. Changing Man you can just say finishes 2nd to whatever wins. There are so many in this race that I just think can't win, plenty of deadwood.
Danny
Journeyman
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- Feb 27, 2013
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Possibly my favourite post of 2025.
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
Desert Orchid
Senior Jockey
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2005
- Messages
- 27,894
Another thing that occurred to me last night was that maybe the Mullins / De Bromhead horses in this race aren't going for the National; that both yards have so many such high-class staying chasers in the yard that they've already identified their National best chances with ones that are sitting already around the 148-150 mark, that will 99% certainly make the cut and so they are are sending their next best handicapped horses for these races.
When you see what the likes of Mullins ran in the different big handicap chases last year and still just about farmed them maybe the rest of the country is banging its head off a brick wall.
Then again, maybe that's why they kept Myretown's mark low through last season.
By the way, guys, if you're keen on Hyland why not Katate Dori?
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
I respect Katate Dori but two reasons I'm backing Hyland over him:
1 - Hyland jumped terrible in their Racing Post Chase meeting and even though he was ok behind the Jukebox Man the time before I think he's better going left handed.
2 - I have a terrible record backing Sam Thomas horses. He's my new Venetia.
Danny
Journeyman
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- 2,446
Personally when I hit the phrase "jumped terrible" he'd of been ejected off my Hen....erm Coral Gold cup hit list. One thing for sure in this race is you need a horse who's fluent at his fences especially when they get to the business end here.
Generous1991
Amateur Rider
It's a fair question ... 14lbs for 15 lengths.
I plumped for Hyland to reverse it partly because he was carrying a lot of weight that day in absolute as well as relative terms. Maybe a weak reason.
They both should stay the extra distance.
Maybe I'm prepared to forgive Hyland pulling up in the National more than Katate Dori pulling up in the Ultima.
Or maybe I'm just putting reasons on an irrational decision!
tiggers1972
Senior Jockey
Reasons I'd take Hyland over Katate Dori.
At Kempton, Hyland missed the start, he's usually very prominent, it was also very wet that day and a bit softer than the Good to Soft ground declared.
Weight pull.
Going left handed over right.
At Kempton, Hyland missed the start, he's usually very prominent, it was also very wet that day and a bit softer than the Good to Soft ground declared.
Weight pull.
Going left handed over right.
Ian_Davies
Conditional
24 declared.
Monty's Star Jonathan Burke
Intense Raffles Ben Bromley (5)
Three Card Brag Jordan Gainford
Spanish Harlem Danny Mullins
Percival Legallois Keith Donoghue
Blizzard Of Oz JJ Slevin
Resplendent Grey Sean Bowen
Gorgeous Tom Darragh O'Keeffe
Lowry's Bar Sean Houlihan
Victtorino Charlie Deutsch
Hyland James Bowen
Annual Invictus Freddie Gordon
The Changing Man Brendan Powell
Riskintheground Kielan Woods
Myretown Derek Fox
O'Moore Park Sean O'Keeffe
Panic Attack Tristan Durrell (3)
Katate Dori Dylan Johnston (3)
The Doyen Chief Tom Bellamy
Grandeur D'Ame Tom Cannon
Moon D'Orange Alex Harvey (3)
Pic Roc Ben Jones
Inch House Harry Cobden
A Penny A Hundred TBC
Betting: https://www.oddschecker.com/horse-racing/2025-11-29-newbury/14:55/winner
Monty's Star Jonathan Burke
Intense Raffles Ben Bromley (5)
Three Card Brag Jordan Gainford
Spanish Harlem Danny Mullins
Percival Legallois Keith Donoghue
Blizzard Of Oz JJ Slevin
Resplendent Grey Sean Bowen
Gorgeous Tom Darragh O'Keeffe
Lowry's Bar Sean Houlihan
Victtorino Charlie Deutsch
Hyland James Bowen
Annual Invictus Freddie Gordon
The Changing Man Brendan Powell
Riskintheground Kielan Woods
Myretown Derek Fox
O'Moore Park Sean O'Keeffe
Panic Attack Tristan Durrell (3)
Katate Dori Dylan Johnston (3)
The Doyen Chief Tom Bellamy
Grandeur D'Ame Tom Cannon
Moon D'Orange Alex Harvey (3)
Pic Roc Ben Jones
Inch House Harry Cobden
A Penny A Hundred TBC
Betting: https://www.oddschecker.com/horse-racing/2025-11-29-newbury/14:55/winner
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Robicheaux
Apprentice
Must be the biggest field in many a year ?
Ian_Davies
Conditional
Your Favourite Uncle Smart Arse has decided finding the mere winner (Pic Roc) of this contest is too easy, so will be delivering the Tricast before post time.
