2 Sires: Hawk Wing & ROG

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mrussell

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I was at Kempton yesterday & a son of Hawk Wing caught my eye -- he looked really classy (to me, before I knew his sire's name) in the paddock. Saute ran a nothing race & that got me wondering how these 2 sires measured up against each other.

ROG has a substantial edge: broadly as follows (wins/runs & total prize)
Sorry it's a bit of a mess - don't know how to do tables here:

____________ROG___________ HW
G1 _________3/94__ 2.5M____0/8 ___152K
Euro Stks _24/219 _2.3M ___2/62 __294K
Flat _____358/2887 7.2M _171/2132 4.0M
A/W _______24/215 _173K __22/250 _109K

This could be because of the mother's side only, of course; however, if people aren't taking decent girls (! fillies/mares whatever?) along, that's part of the picture, too.

There is no sub-category where HW outdoes ROG.

If interested, would people knowledgeable in this area like to comment?
 
The fact that Hawk Wing is now standing in India (at least I think it's India?) surely tells you all you need to know!
 
Well, yes unfortunatly, Hawk Wing, like many sons of Woodman never really hit it at Stud. I have seen a couple of his offspring over here, very very different types, and some far far to heavy for their own good (and I do not mean they have been fed to much!) - Stubbs Art for example is a Hawk Wing, and probbaly one of his best, too but has virtually nothing in common with his sire. There is alway one million reasons why a horse that was such a good racehorse (ok, in his case to me at least) fail at stud, but far more do so than succeed. in his case it might be a temperament issue as well, he was not the easiest to train and many of his offspring are not the most honest, to put it that way.

And yes, think it was said he has been sold to India in the first place and later was made public it was something like korea.
 
Well, it wasn't the fact he seems not that successful -- it's Korea -- but just why?
And how much is down to Coolmore's marketing + reputation (& ROG's); they might attract better females.
I was really interested in the breeding lines throwing up some kind of explanation.

(posted before Crazy Horse's post.)
 
crazyhorse said:
Well, yes unfortunatly, Hawk Wing, like many sons of Woodman never really hit it at Stud. I have seen a couple of his offspring over here, very very different types, and some far far to heavy for their own good (and I do not mean they have been fed to much!) - Stubbs Art for example is a Hawk Wing, and probbaly one of his best, too but has virtually nothing in common with his sire. There is alway one million reasons why a horse that was such a good racehorse (ok, in his case to me at least) fail at stud, but far more do so than succeed. in his case it might be a temperament issue as well, he was not the easiest to train and many of his offspring are not the most honest, to put it that way.
Click to expand...

Now that's interesting -- I think I can remember 'Woodman and his male-side grandchildren.'....
Agree about Hawk Wing's own quality 100%.
Thanks!
 
Unlike Coolmore’s preferred stallions they took a rather scattergun approach with Woodman (probably as he was only a Group 3 winner) leading to a mix of types and no clear evidence of prepotency (as others have alluded to). Added to this Woodman’s progeny show a variety of physical flaws. When they are good they are very good the majority of the remainder all over the place having a range of physical faults.

Hawk Wing was at his best a sublime performer. Unfortunately it was never likely that he would be given the best opportunities to prove himself at stud with the good mares booked to the best-bet stallions.
 
As good as Rock Of Gibraltar was perceived to be, or his race record viewed as outstanding at the time or subsequently, on appearance I always thought
he was a not at all an impressive horse physically, and I don't think I have seen anything by him which has impressed either.
Hawk Wing I think was always going to struggle given the company he was surrounded by at stud.
 
mrussell said:
No doubt Coolmore made a commercial decision about which one to promote .... which of cours leads back to James, the Hold-up Kid.

:)
Click to expand...

A Weatherbys report will show you how many foals both had, how many of the mares where winners and how many where black type winners etc. This is a major factor but there are many other factors.Large no.s do not gaurantee success at stud. Some stallions are just not capable of getting a top runner. There are many examples of this over the last few years. Other stallions despite small books of ordinary mares will produce good one.

Hawk wings sire woodman had a great rep for getting good broodmares but his progeny where hard to get to the racecourse, usually knee problems...maybe Hawk wings was having the same problem. I wouldn't touch the woodman line (again)myself so i don't know.
 
In addition to the physical flaws WOODMAN passed on, he also passed on a certain softness of temperament. HAWK WING was a typical case in point. My own personal opinion is that as a breed they have a low paid threshold and won't run through that pain barrier - I don't believe HW did for sure other than maybe the Lockinge!! HW was also pretty heavy-topped.

On the other hand, ROG was an admirable example of a horse that would go through the pain barrier - tough as teak and didn't know the meaning of the words 'give up'!

Whether his offspring have inherited his tenacity I wouldn't know....
 
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