A thought on the Festival Handicaps

Maruco

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I don't whether this has occurred to anyone else, but most of the Festival Handicaps were seriously compressed. I've no issue with this per se, but it struck me that a number of very good horses didn't get a run at the expense of horses that literally had no chance.

Owners not surprising want their big day out. But the Festival should be the best of the best, and it strikes me as though there is a simple enough solution to keeping poorer horses or those on the downgrade away. If you haven't won in the preceding 12 months you don't get a run.

it also makes it harder to tuck a rating in the pocket for a year or more, meaning a trainer has to show his hand at some point during the season if he wants a run.

Thoughts?
 
Couldn't do it mate.............Look at Pendra eg............They could only get one run into him but his rating justified him getting in.

Irish Cavalier had been running on his merits beaten on a couple of lengths in 2 of his 3 races.

Thomas Crapper you could tar with the same brush.

No legitimit reason to eliminate those type of horses unless you want a riot on your hands
 
Would stop the blatant cheating that Mulilins did with Wicklow Brave.


I'm not sure how you arrive at the cheating conclusion.Before the 2014 Supreme WB went to post like an absolute headbanger -I place laid him for my entire betfair bank and was made to sweat for it.Personally I think the horse is a character and it could be some time before he wins another race.
 
I'm not sure how you arrive at the cheating conclusion.Before the 2014 Supreme WB went to post like an absolute headbanger -I place laid him for my entire betfair bank and was made to sweat for it.Personally I think the horse is a character and it could be some time before he wins another race.
I think it was a cheat.
 
I don't whether this has occurred to anyone else, but most of the Festival Handicaps were seriously compressed. I've no issue with this per se, but it struck me that a number of very good horses didn't get a run at the expense of horses that literally had no chance.

Owners not surprising want their big day out. But the Festival should be the best of the best, and it strikes me as though there is a simple enough solution to keeping poorer horses or those on the downgrade away. If you haven't won in the preceding 12 months you don't get a run.

it also makes it harder to tuck a rating in the pocket for a year or more, meaning a trainer has to show his hand at some point during the season if he wants a run.

Thoughts?
disagree on this
i think its fair how it is, if You are hiding the horse and dont make the cut is that the trainer has not done his Job properly.
just check what Henderson did with call the cops.
 
I don't whether this has occurred to anyone else, but most of the Festival Handicaps were seriously compressed. I've no issue with this per se, but it struck me that a number of very good horses didn't get a run at the expense of horses that literally had no chance.

Owners not surprising want their big day out. But the Festival should be the best of the best, and it strikes me as though there is a simple enough solution to keeping poorer horses or those on the downgrade away. If you haven't won in the preceding 12 months you don't get a run.

it also makes it harder to tuck a rating in the pocket for a year or more, meaning a trainer has to show his hand at some point during the season if he wants a run.

Thoughts?

It would also force a few midweek runs to get the all important '1' quite probably at courses who are struggling to attract fields. To some extent the Pertemps series operates a version of the requirement (is it top 6 or top 8 now you have to achieve rather than just participating?)

Still, i'll await the outcry when Cantlow mysteriously bounces back to form at Fairyhouse
 
Couldn't do it mate.............Look at Pendra eg............They could only get one run into him but his rating justified him getting in.

Irish Cavalier had been running on his merits beaten on a couple of lengths in 2 of his 3 races.

Thomas Crapper you could tar with the same brush.

No legitimit reason to eliminate those type of horses unless you want a riot on your hands

Then Pendra if good enough has the chance to win his one race. Alternatively if he can't get his win there are plenty of races elsewhere.

In the case of Irish Cavalier, who I backed incidentally so I'm not being selective, he'd not qualify as simple as that. The alternative is they find a race and win with him beforehand and have him fit enough do himself justice. And yes you could tar Thomas Crapper with a similar brush who was largely campaigned over distances too short to get his mark. Alternatively Tom George and Nick Gifford could have hiddent the marks of Stellar Notion and Generous Ransom and you'd have had a very different result because they're better horses. Instead they spent most of the season showing they had the best horses but not the best handicapped in the race.

I understand the basis of handicaps. The one that's best in wins most of the time but not always, as was the case with Monetaire who was seriously unlucky. But Mullins, Nicholls, Henderson, Pipe, and other stables with money and big strings are best able to lay one out because of their embarrassment of riches. And surprise, surprise they all did just that. Just like the Grade 1's, the handicaps are Being dominated by the same stables. You can't change it completely, but you can make it harder and force them to show their hand.

The bottom line though is that the handicaps are massively over subscribed and in most of them you could strike a line though more than half of them without any effort whatsoever. Maybe a win in the season is a step too far (I still don't think so personally), and maybe at least a place In a Grade 3 or above in the season would be satisfy the sceptics. But if the best handicapped horses get a run it's also harder for the big stables to dominate.

I still maintain that the Festival handicaps should attract the best possible 24 or so horses in the current season, and without a rule change they attract the best dozen or so including half that have spent the previous year hiding their true mark, with the rest being deadwood. Insisting on a win in the season is a reasonable step towards blocking out blatant but largely unenforceable handicap mark management.

I want to see the most competitive handicaps possible without a growing bias towards the big stables with their embarrassments of riches. Grade 1's are fair enough. Barring rare exceptions they will go to the big money stables but handicaps are a different matter particularly limited handicaps where the big stables can easily save 155 horses for 0-140's.

I accept there isn't a perfect solution, but just as basic standards have been put in place to avoid Fergus Wilson and co running no hopers in Championship races, steps should also be taken to remove the deadwood from the handicaps which has the side impact of making it harder for the big stables to easily dominate.
 
Is there a growing bias towards big stables in the handicaps or has it always been that way-it would be interesting to analyse the last 20 years.
 
You guys want what? If WPM had decided to run Arctic Fire in the County he wouldn't qualify because he hadn't won a race?

It simply doesn't get any sillier than that.

We all know a lot of horses are being aimed at winning at the festival, but for every Aux Ptits Soins in a handicap there's a Taglietelle or a Hammersly Lake who have been trained for the race that don't win.

The thought of not allowing a horse like the Package not to run because he's failed to win all season is crazy.

David Pipe tried everything to have him right last year for Chaleteham but he ended being tailed off......He stuck with him and through a lot of time and effort gets him back to win at the Festival on his 3rd try.

He's a horse a lot of people backed based on his effort at the festival 2 years ago in the hope David Pipe did have him spot on.

Did David Pipe cheat and think he was some kind of certainty to win the race? Considering he drifted in the market and he openly said before the race he was well and had a good ew chance hardly marks him up as a cheat.

The Nichols horse that won were also easy to back, Henderson's Call the Cops wasn't exactly backed of the boards wither........Just the 2 best trainers in the country doing what they always seem to do....win.

Never ever going to change......you are the highest rated you run simple as.
 
No I'm saying my suggestion addresses two issues. Had Mullins decided Arctic Fire was going to have an easy season he could have got him into the County in the high 140's when he's a 170 horse. I can only assume you're comfortable with that?

The Package was third at last years Festival not tailed off, so let's use facts. He was beaten 49 lengths and pulled up this season. The handicapper dropped him to a mark 4lbs lower than being touched off at the Festival last season and he absolutely hosed up. You're comfortable with that too?

If a win is required to qualify it goes some way towards preventing a trainer blatantly handicapping his horse by forcing the handicapper to drop him which is precisely what happened with The Package. I'm guessing you're comfortable with that too?

My suggestion addresses two key issues. Cheating, and also poor horses getting a run and blocking others that deserve to take their chance.
 
Interestingly (or perhaps not), only 22 of the last 208 winners of handicaps at the Festival have failed to place in that season (70 of the 208 had failed to win).
 
Fine Maruco but previous festival form should be a factor also.
Take The Package, placed behind the two best handicapped horses at Cheltenham last year; he surely deserved his place being a Spring Horse who likes better ground. The Festival historically is full of these horses who are not necessarily "stopped " all season but just do not have proper ground conditions.
Remember Harchibald got beaten in a County Hurdle carrying 10_1 or 10_2, if anything he stopped himself.
Horses do improve year on year, at least some of them do.
 
Maruco my issue with your suggestion is the horse in the low 150s, he isn't good enough for the Grade 1 races but if all goes well he could make a place in a Festival handicap. That horse may have a high rating because he has been run honestly. He doesn't deserve to lose out on a place in the race to one rated 20lb or more lower.

Personally I liked the fact that the handicaps were compressed.
 
Interestingly (or perhaps not), only 22 of the last 208 winners of handicaps at the Festival have failed to place in that season (70 of the 208 had failed to win).

33% fail to win during a season; I was wondering what it was. The Grand Annual might look interesting given the frequency with which that falls to a horse that hasn't won for 12 months (did again this year). I'm under the impression that hurdles (which are more heavily subscribed) perform differently to chases. To some extent, an argument might equally run that as more and more owners base their entire season around trying to get a run at the festival, more and more hurdlers in particular will have to win a race to get in (unless they're called Wicklow bloody Brave - I had the second and third is a forecast)
 
Fine Maruco but previous festival form should be a factor also.
Take The Package, placed behind the two best handicapped horses at Cheltenham last year; he surely deserved his place being a Spring Horse who likes better ground. The Festival historically is full of these horses who are not necessarily "stopped " all season but just do not have proper ground conditions.
Remember Harchibald got beaten in a County Hurdle carrying 10_1 or 10_2, if anything he stopped himself.
Horses do improve year on year, at least some of them do.

True Ed, but The Package had clearly been run with the handicapper in mind this season. He was a well handicapped horse capable of winning during the season, instead he was unsighted on suitable ground and then pulled up on less suitable ground and given 4lbs off by the handicapper.
 
Maruco my issue with your suggestion is the horse in the low 150s, he isn't good enough for the Grade 1 races but if all goes well he could make a place in a Festival handicap. That horse may have a high rating because he has been run honestly. He doesn't deserve to lose out on a place in the race to one rated 20lb or more lower.

Personally I liked the fact that the handicaps were compressed.

There's an advantage for these horses though. So many have placed beaten by a dark one. If anything what I'm suggesting is good for the 150 horses capable of winning on merit unless they are so badly handicapped they can't win. If that's the case they're in the wrong race making up the numbers which was my original point.
 
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Interestingly (or perhaps not), only 22 of the last 208 winners of handicaps at the Festival have failed to place in that season (70 of the 208 had failed to win).

Which suggests that very many of the 70 have been running for the right mark all season. If they had been running on merit you'd reasonably think that given they represent one in three handicap winners at the Festival most must have been running for a mark. It seems ulikely that so many would only win on their given day in March otherwise.

One in ten not placing says it all really and surely is as compelling as anything. I'll try and do some research when I get time to see if there's any noticeable correlation to the stables they represented.

The bottom line is that a third of Festival handicap winners hadn't found a win all season but remarkably they can win what is theoretically is the toughest handicap they contest all season. Says it all really.
 
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Small fields was certanly a talking point in the early part of the season. But then why would a trainer turn up and risk winning if he's going to be raised 8Ibs. This is racing after all. God forbid they might run to win

I think there's two at things at play and it's been panning out for the last 10 years

1: The preminence of the Cheltenham festival has assumed ever greater significance, especially amongst trainers trying to attract owners
2: When Phil Smith took over handicapping he was notably harsher on a win than his predecessors. The likes of MCP and even VMW following him, would get a horse fit, run it every 10 days, and run up a 5 or 6 winner sequence only getting raised 3Ibs at a time. You'd be raised about 30Ibs if you achieved that today.

If you want a quick 'case study' just look at Next Sensation and Croco Bay raised 15Ibs and left his festival at Ascot. Next Sensation 3 unplaced runs, dropped 3Ibs and wins
 
It would make for some very interesting midweek markets anyway when a horse that's skulking round Bangor at 2/1 and loses without raising an eyebrow is suddenly priced up 1/4 because it needs to win and duly obliges. I can't think of many more gaphic ways of confirming what people have been saying for years with the old question "is it trying?"

It would probably change the way we bet as well witht he straight forecast suddenly looking quite an attractive proposition
 
33% fail to win during a season; I was wondering what it was. The Grand Annual might look interesting given the frequency with which that falls to a horse that hasn't won for 12 months (did again this year). I'm under the impression that hurdles (which are more heavily subscribed) perform differently to chases.

Apologies, gave slightly wrong stats earlier as included the Grand National in it.

It's actually 61 from 187 that had failed to win in the season, 20 failing to place.

Hcp Chases - 65% won, 91% placed
Hcp Hurdles - 70% won, 86% placed

Individual races (%won % placed)

Coral Cup 76% / 81%
County 67%/90%
Festival Place 57%/81%
Fred Winter 82%/91%
Grand Annual 52%/90%
3m1f Hcp Ch that changes its name every second year 71%/90%
Kim Muir 62%/90%
Martin Pipe 86%/86%
Novices Hcp Ch 82%/100%
Pertemps 57%/86%
 
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These are the "hadn't placed all season" horses. One surname jumps out for me.

[TABLE="width: 199"]
<colgroup><col><col></colgroup><tbody>[TR]
[TD]Alfie Sherrin[/TD]
[TD]PF75[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ballynagour[/TD]
[TD]P[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Blowing Wind[/TD]
[TD]P5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Buena Vista[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8508[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Cape Tribulation[/TD]
[TD]5P504[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Fontanesi[/TD]
[TD]0P660048[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Greenhope[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ilnamar[/TD]
[TD]54U[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Joes Edge[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]78[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Kadoun[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]58505[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Khayrawani[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Next Sensation[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]604[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Pause And Clause[/TD]
[TD]445U[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Royal Predica[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Salut Flo[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Son Of Flicka[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9090[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]The Package[/TD]
[TD]6P[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Top Cees[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]585[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]What A Charm[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]757[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Wicklow Brave[/TD]
[TD]F580P[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Young Spartacus[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]
 
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