Abu Hamza Found Guilty

BrianH

BrianH

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From the Guardian online:

Hamza guilty of soliciting to murder

Staff and agencies
Tuesday February 7, 2006

An Old Bailey jury today found the Muslim cleric Abu Hamza al-Masri guilty of a series of charges of soliciting to murder and race hate.
Hamza was convicted of six of nine charges of soliciting to murder and two of four charges - brought under the Public Order Act 1986 - of "using threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour with the intention of stirring up racial hatred".

He was also convicted of a charge of possession of video and audio recordings he intended to distribute to stir up racial hatred, and of a charge, under section 58 of the Terrorism Act, of possession of a document - the Encyclopaedia of the Afghani Jihad - containing information "of a kind likely to be useful to a person committing or preparing an act of terrorism".

The jury cleared him of five more charges. Egyptian-born Hamza, 47, faces a maximum sentence of life in prison. He will be sentenced at 2.15pm today.

Earlier today, the judge warned jurors not to be "sidetracked" by the controversy sparked by newspaper caricatures depicting the prophet Muhammad.

Judge Anthony Hughes told them not to be "sidetracked into a more general discussion, particularly in light of the events of the last few days".

"Do not, for example, get into a debate about when free speech ought to be tolerated or restrained," he added. "You are not here as lawmakers. You are interested in this defendant and this defendant alone."

The jury of seven men and five women began deliberating last Wednesday.

During the three-week trial, prosecutor David Perry said Hamza had preached "terrorism, homicidal violence and hatred" in sermons and speeches that were recorded and played in court.

Hamza's lawyer, Edward Fitzgerald, told jurors that although some of what the preacher had said was offensive and "a bit over the top", he had not been inciting others to kill.
 
He could get a very long time indeed - and the Americans have said that however long it is they want him deported there to face charges when his sentence has been served.
 
It sounds to me like he was really charged with "being someone who may do something nasty in the future, or may have done something nasty in the past of which we are unaware".

I'm sure they have a legal basis but the actual charges sound a bit makey-uppey. It's a bit like your man who was locked in the Tower of London for "intent to alarm the Queen" when he shot a starting pistol or some such in the air. It was said in court that he might have shot her if he had a real gun.
 
Can't we let the Americans have him now and serve his three and a half years over there?
 
Why not? :rolleyes: Meaningless him sitting in our prison for 3 and a half years if found guilty over there will no doubt serve a lot longer. Yes I know that's a big if...but really what's the difference sitting in one of our prisons to theirs? If they find him innocent, he can come back. Yes I know I am being simplistic, but honestly.................
 
Originally posted by Melendez@Feb 7 2006, 03:54 PM
It sounds to me like he was really charged with "being someone who may do something nasty in the future, or may have done something nasty in the past of which we are unaware".

Click to expand...
I am a great believer in civil liberties but had I been on the jury I would have arrived at the same verdict as they did. Below are a few extracts from his speeches and to me if they don't indficate preaching race hatred and incitement, then I don't know what does.

* In a two-hour video of an address given in 1997/98 to a private meeting in Whitechapel, east London, Hamza said that Muslims living in this country "are living in a toilet and are living like animals". Hamza called on the audience to sacrifice itself and fight. He described the first stage as "bleeding the enemy".

"We ask Muslims to do that, to be capable to do that, to be capable to bleed the enemies of Allah anywhere, by any means.

"You can't do it by nuclear weapon, you do it by the kitchen knife, no other solution. You cannot do it by chemical weapons, you have to do it by mice poison. Like you imagine you have one small knife and you have a big animal in front of you.

"The size of the knife - you cannot slaughter him with this. You have to stab him here and there until he bleeds to death. Then you can cut up the meat as you like to, or leave it to the maggots. This is the first stage of Jihad."

* In a video of a speech Hamza gave in September 1999 and entitled "Adherence to Islam in the western world", he states Islamic beliefs should be spread with the help of the sword. He says that those selling alcohol should be persuaded to come to the mosque.

"Make sure that the person who gave him the licence for that wine shop doesn't exist any more on the Earth. Finish him up. Give him Dawa (inviting non-Muslims to accept the truth of Islam). If he doesn't respect Dawa, kill him.

"You have to understand that Dawa is good but it doesn't survive alone. There is many prophets before Muhammad ... they were killed because they did not have the sword with them."

There was "no drop of liquid loved by Allah more than the liquid of blood". Hamza suggested that secular people coming to the UK as political refugees could kill or steal while a Muslim seeking sanctuary on religious grounds could not.

"... if he comes with a different name in a false passport, call himself, for example Simon ... and he's Muhammad in this, then he can, he can, he can kill, he can steal, he can everything."

* In a talk given in Arabic by Hamza he verbally attacked Jews, whom he described as "sons of monkeys".

"The Jews will be destroyed, the state will be destroyed and some of the Jews will be running around hiding behind the trees and the stones and then they got cursed by the earth until there is not one of them left.

"The Jews will never leave Palestine. The Jews will be buried there. We do not want the Jews to pull away from Palestine, but we want them to be buried there. This is God's decree.

"So the nation of Muhammad must regain their dignity and this dignity will not be regained unless with blood."

He stated that Hitler had looked at Jewish "dealings and treachery. They wanted to deceive him in his war, some were dealing with the allies against him and some were dealing with him, so he killed them and punished them."

* In another speech, Hamza told his audience that when they are killed in the cause of Allah, "you are doing the right thing". When asked whether suicide bombing was allowed Hamza replied: "It is not called suicide, it is called shahid (martyr) operation."

He suggested people called it suicide to put others off it. "It is not called suicide - this is called shahada, martyring, because if the only way to hurt the enemies of Islam except by taking your life for that, then it is allowed."

Hamza said: "The person who hinders Allah's rule, this man must be eliminated."

* In a videotape of a series of sermons delivered in 2000, he refers to the sinking of the Russian submarine the Kursk.

"Allah is trapping more than 100 Russians under the sea. Allah is trapping them with all their technology, they can't even save themselves - they are humiliated - they ask people to help them and those that cannot even help them.

"Allah kill all of them today for the retaliation for our brothers in Chechnya and for our brothers who are getting killed in their evil empire."
 
Originally posted by Brave Inca@Feb 7 2006, 06:24 PM
Okey Dokey

Nick Griffin
Click to expand...
On this forum there is no greater opponent of Nick Griffin and all that he stands for than I, and it must be remembered that he is being retried.

However, even Griffin's worst enemies - and that would include lots of us - couldn't claim that he was inciting murder. Griffin and his henchman are accused of using words or behaviour intended or likely to stir up racial hatred. Hamza faced four similar charges and was found guilty of two of them. He was found guilty also of six (out of nine) charges of soliciting to murder.

As far as I know, the police have not found at the BNP offices any weapons, CS gas canisters, protective clothing against chemicals, stun guns, forged and stolen passports, credit cards and travel documents such as were found on the raid at Abu Hamza's headquarters. Not to mention what has been referred to as "a terrorism training manual".

I believe that on the evidence that I have seen presented Nick Griffin is guilty of the charges against him, but fail to see the relevance of this in the Hamza case.
 
I was dozing, so only half-heard the news presenter say that Hamza could serve on 18 months - is that so? Why couldn't the sentences have been made consecutive instead of concurrent? Is it a ploy to get him off to States tout suite and awa' the noo, so they can bang him up for 25 years? We are rid of this pestilential priest for now, and I really DO hope that the British Govt. is coming to its senses over what constitutes the reasonable exercise of the freedom of expression, and what is not.

Hamza was allowed to rant and rave for far too long, and to gain some sort of hero status to a tiny, tiny, but ready-to-be-radical minority. It only takes three misguided boys with rucksacks to bring one of the world's biggest cities to a halt, and to change or ruin dozens of lives forever. We need to get a better grip on who and what is FOR our national good, and who and what is against it, and act quickly and decisively, instead of piddling about over semantics.
 
Not eighteen months but three and a half years if he behaves himself, which is under the normal rules of licence. We tend not to do consecutive here, unlike the courts where he'll appear next. It's not unknown there to see someone sentenced to twenty years and life imprisonment, the sentences to run consecutively.
 
Yes, I know the US and some other countries are far more draconian, but why don't we do consecutives? Would it be for political expediency in this particular case, along the lines I've suggestivicated? (I'm getting Hamza ready for Bushisms.)
 
He has been on remand for 18 months now so he only has another 18-34 months left.

I assume that is what Krizon heard.

What are the yanks going to charge him with ? Same sort of charges ?
 
Generally it depends on whether the offences arise from the same course of criminal conduct . Thus in a case where dangerous driving and GBH arose out of the same facts in an incident the sentences were changed from consecutive to concurrent whilst when a defendant had committed firearms offences in conjunction with drug dealing , they were not regarded as being the same incident of criminal conduct but two different types .

The general overarching principle is that consecutive sentences should only imposed if necessary to reflect the seriousness of the criminality .

Some might think 7 years to be lenient in this case but it is one course of criminal conduct.
 
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