Apprenticeships

Tout Seul

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Apologies for a long post but I am a firm believer in the value of proper apprenticeships. Not only to give kids a chance to gain a long term paying skill and for the benefit of the economy but also as a vital, missing, cog in the assimilation of youth into society. Proper apprenticeships put kids into a position where they learn how to contribute to society, take a pride in themselves and their work, give them a worthwhile target to aim for and provide them with a future.

It would mean far fewer kids contemplating the succession of minimum pay jobs and no progression, ie dead end work or the dole. Reinstatement of effective measures could help to lessen the current decline of those formerly known as the working classes.
The following article considers a House of Lords report that covers the economic benefits to the country. Why the hell do the unions and others supposedly looking to prevent the further growth of the underclass not publicise such a report and use it with their own arguments to get the Government to act?


Our ill-trained youth will kick Britain out of the economic elite
By Liam Halligan, Economics Editor, Sunday Telegraph

Say the word "apprentice" and many of us think of the cheesy reality TV show. But not so long ago becoming an "apprentice" was a source of genuine pride for huge numbers of school leavers. Part-time, on-the-job training was a well-trodden and respectable path - a near-certain route to a secure and fulfilling future.

Last week the House of Lords economic affairs select committee produced a report that deserves attention. This is a highly authoritative body, boasting two former chancellors, some leading industrialists and several world-class economists.

Freed from the party politics that so often crushes Commons committees, their Lordships tell it as it is. Take note, then, that this detailed study is "strongly critical of the UK's training and career development provision for low-skilled young people" and calls for "immediate steps to re-invigorate the apprenticeship system".

This country has a skills problem. For years, our productivity has lagged behind competitors such as France and Germany. One reason is that, while some of our higher education is good, Britain has a disgraceful number of "Neets" - those not in education, employment or training. As the committee points out, no less than a fifth of our 19 to 24-year-olds are languishing in this damaging void.

That's hardly surprising, given that only 50 per cent of 19 to 21-year-olds achieve "Level 2+ qualifications" or higher - five GCSEs or their vocational equivalent (NVQ 2). In Germany the figure is more than 60 per cent, in France more than 70 per cent.


By the age of 33 barely two thirds of Britons have reached this basic level of employability - compared with more than four fifths of the workforce in Europe's other two big economies.

As a country, we are producing an ever-growing mass of workers who are failing to clear a vital skills hurdle. Our inability to develop the potential of millions of our people causes problems that go beyond human misery, sky-high benefit payments and the related social fallout.

For one thing, our skills shortage - by hindering output, in the face of rising demand - generates inflation. That causes interest rates to be relatively higher, restricting growth even more.

As competition hots up, and "emerging giants" such as China and India really get into gear, this country's lack of skills will become extremely serious. The recent Leitch Review into adult training concluded that, unless Britain "doubles skill levels by 2020", we had no hope of remaining a leading global economy.

Part of the problem, as the Lords committee says, is that "many young people leave school without even the basic levels of numeracy and literacy". That's compounded by "the very limited access to apprenticeships - a key weakness in Britain's training regime".

Such placements are "the best route to skills for young people not intending to pursue university education", the committee says, not only in manufacturing but in the ever-expanding services sector too. "But apprenticeships are now desperately needed," says the report, "for the benefit of young people themselves and the long-term wellbeing of the UK economy."

BT, for instance, told the committee it receives around 15,000 applications a year for only 80 apprenticeship places. Compare that with Germany, where around half of all 16 to 24-year-olds will be part of an apprenticeship scheme.

The report points out that our disdain for vocational education is "a long-standing problem". As the committee says, "successive governments have failed to tackle the problem effectively, with numerous announcements and policy initiatives not followed up with delivery".

But their Lordships are "alarmed by gaping holes in the data", by the fact that "no one government agency has ownership of the apprenticeship system" and by the lack of a clearing system to allocate places - "which was announced in 2004 but has failed to materialise".

The report is also "extremely critical of information and guidance being given to youngsters" considering apprenticeships. As one of the report's authors told me: "Many of the schools don't want to know. The Government's targets, and the emphasis on getting everyone to university, mean they don't want pupils even looking at apprenticeships
This is madness. That's why I support the committee's call for all 14-year-olds to be told that, if they apply themselves and reach the required standard, they'll get a guaranteed apprenticeship when they leave school.

For more academic youngsters, such a promise will be irrelevant. But for countless others, it could be a lifeline - inspiring them to achieve just at the time when they might otherwise begin to drift. Such a system will only work, though, if the places available are relevant, of high quality and provide genuine training. And this is where their Lordships really hit home.

Within five years, says the report, all government money for apprenticeships should go directly to employers, a move that would not only increase available placements but make the whole process more useful to all concerned.

If apprenticeship funding - around £3,250 per person per year - was channelled into work-based training, rather than into hopeless state-run schemes, "employers would have an incentive to provide more places, and also to become more actively involved in devising innovative and effective apprenticeships". That makes complete sense.

Ministers say they want such "demand-led" training. But when it comes down to it, Labour's instinct is to protect the public sector's so-called "training providers", at the expense of what employers and apprentices want.

On Friday, the day after the Lords report was published, the Government announced a "rethink" of its plan to give employers control of the national skills training budget because of the risk - wait for it - of "destabilising further education colleges".

This misguided decision was hardly noticed. But it will have terrible implications for the future of numerous youngsters and the future of the British economy.
 
Tout, I would agree that the return of apprenticeships would be excellent.

The trouble is, as with so many things in life, the system would be abused.

In the dark ages when we still had a coal industry the National Coal Board offered apprenticeships but so many of the people who took these up left the industry for healthier employment when they were qualified. Not a very satisfactory situation for any employer.
 
A very interesting post

BT only has 80 apprenticeships. I wonder how many engineers they have and how many they recruit externally each year?

I am lucky in that I work for a company that offers NVQ training for all my staff so they have other skills and quals if they ever leave and go somewhere else.

Most young people seem to fall into the NEETS category and I agree wholeheartedly that they should be able to take up apprenticeships
 
When I was young an apprenticeship lasted 5 years. Thing is, some of the trades could be taught in a few weeks. 5 years as a glorified tea boy is hardly an incentive.
 
Originally posted by Tout Seul@Jul 23 2007, 02:08 AM
Apologies for a long post but I am a firm believer in the value of proper apprenticeships. Not only to give kids a chance to gain a long term paying skill and for the benefit of the economy but also as a vital, missing, cog in the assimilation of youth into society. Proper apprenticeships put kids into a position where they learn how to contribute to society, take a pride in themselves and their work, give them a worthwhile target to aim for and provide them with a future.
I couldn't agree more, Tout. Instead though, the teachers are encouraging kids to go to glorified polytechnics to study lying in bed all day, bunking lectures & drinking heavily for 3/4/5 years (in fact as long as they can stretch it) instead, after which they will do everything in their power to avoid getting a job.

A return to conscription wouldn't be a bad thing either - might teach some discipline & respect.
 
I did 3-1/2 years as an apprentice SPARK!! I did most of the work as I was employed by a small company,and was on Pizz poor monies, so left and went into becoming a BLACKSMITH (Heavy engineering) on peace work..

I then left this because the company closed down and went into driving ARTICS for a company opposite were I worked after another few months with an arsehole company as a Blacksmith again......

So yes I would encourage apprentiships (although deemed as cheap labour!)

I am also very aware that the NHS train DENTISTS here in Cardiff with a full teaching taking place at no doubt a huge costs to the NHS and then leave and set up businesses of their own and charge ridiculous fees for giving you treatment if private, why is there no recovery of these monies spent on their training over the 6 yrs,they train, thats what bugs me......

No doubt it applies to doctors too?????????

A return to conscription wouldn't be a bad thing either - might teach some discipline & respect.

Yes I agree 120% to that suggestion too S-L................
 
:rant: Conscription ? You're having a Steffi, Shads. You remember what it's like in Gib when there's a boat in ? Carnage, that's what. Also of what use would it have been to someone like me ? (And, more to the point, what use would I have been to the military ?) :laughing:

Discipline should be taught by parents and re-enforced by those in authority (teachers, police etc) who in turn should be backed up by government - I honestly feel sorry for the police and teachers who find themselves up against a mis-behaving kid who "knows his rights". If these kids were forced into the services, they'd play the same card on their seniors and, in this day and age, get away with it.

Rant over.
 
Originally posted by Shadow Leader@Jul 23 2007, 11:15 AM
the teachers are encouraging kids to go to glorified polytechnics to study lying in bed all day, bunking lectures & drinking heavily for 3/4/5 years (in fact as long as they can stretch it) instead, after which they will do everything in their power to avoid getting a job.
SL, that is a total misrepresentation of what teachers do.
 
The schools, then. Even when I left school 11 years ago everything was geared around encouraging and getting as many pupils as possible into "universities" which were in truth glorified polytechnics or colleges. They may well be under pressure from some higher force to get as many kids as possible to go on to HE in some form (if a lot of it is even worthy of being called higher education), I don't know.
 
There was a lot of pressure for us to get into Universities but we all have good careers so it was worth it. All 3 of us Jones siblings went to Polytechnics yet we are successful.
 
The idea that graduates will do all they can to avoid getting a job must be a wind up. The average student debt was £13650 in 2006 (source - The Independent) so to not want to pay that off as soon as possible would be ridiculous.

Teachers naturally want the best for their students so if that involves university degrees so be it. Quite why we wouldn't encourage pupils to further their education is beyond me.
 
Originally posted by PDJ@Jul 23 2007, 05:56 PM
The idea that graduates will do all they can to avoid getting a job must be a wind up. The average student debt was £13650 in 2006 (source - The Independent) so to not want to pay that off as soon as possible would be ridiculous.

Teachers naturally want the best for their students so if that involves university degrees so be it. Quite why we wouldn't encourage pupils to further their education is beyond me.
I think the problem is that many degrees are not worth the paper they are written on, leading to debt-laden kids who have graduated in subjects that won't find them work.

From the Guardian:
"There are the apparent oxymorons - turfgrass science, amenity horticulture, surf and beach management and the BSc from Luton University in decision-making, which begs the cheap but irresistible observation, how did those on the course manage to make the decision to take it in the first place?"

Some of these kids might just as well have entered the job (or apprenticeship) market at 18 as employers would know what they are capable of in the real world.

The glut of students leaving with degrees also makes employers looking to seperate the wood from the chaff look for post-grad degrees. Which means more debt and no guarantee of employment afterwards if they fail.
 
"The average student debt was £13650 in 2006 (source - The Independent) so to not want to pay that off as soon as possible would be ridiculous."


Paul, I'm not sure of the veracity of this story, but there was a young manager working for the same bookmaker as I was and he wasn't interested in getting a better paid job, because if he did he would have to start paying back his loan.

As I say I can't guarantee the facts but that was the story that was doing the rounds. shrug::
 
Originally posted by Shadow Leader@Jul 23 2007, 07:33 PM
As usual you've come out with an opinion the same as mine but worded it in a so much better way, CF!
As usual, Shads, as usual ! :P

However, I do disagree with you on the subject of conscription.
 
Surely "beach management" is just LSD and all the other stuff I did for my A-level in Geography?

Can't believe they're making degrees out of these things - Northern Studies is another, all these pointless degrees with pointless outcomes and the only thing you really learn is transferable skills with presentations, group work etc.
 
Colin, there will always be an idle element in society but all of the people with whom I went to university have good jobs and none of them are in the situation where they are not paying back their loans. In order to avoid paying back your student loans, you need to be earning under £15,000. There are few if any graduates to whom this would apply. It is hardly the fault of teachers and school if students choose useless degrees. All teachers can do is advise and hope that pupils can achieve their dreams.
 
Indeed Dom, the "gap year" is another one. Generally one last freebie on the interest free overdraft the banks seem willing to hand out to students left, right and centre. I do need to declare I still have mine though it's been cut for this year and will be zero by next August :(
 
As we seemingly posted at the same time I hadn't previously seen your post, Colin. I have also come across that tactic - making sure graduates aren't quite earning enough to start paying back their student loans.
 
Originally posted by ovverbruv@Jul 23 2007, 08:34 AM
I am lucky in that I work for a company that offers NVQ training for all my staff so they have other skills and quals if they ever leave and go somewhere else.

Most young people seem to fall into the NEETS category and I agree wholeheartedly that they should be able to take up apprenticeships
That is a good company policy but do you find that when they are qualified they move to companies that do not offer the skills training but can afford to offer slighly better pay cos they don't have a high training budget?
 
It's a difficult situation either way.

When I was unemployed after finishing uni and teacher training, I went for an interview for a job as a bus driver.

The interviewer was entirely honest with me: "You're vastly over-qualified for this job. We could spend several weeks and hundreds of pounds (1980) training you to be a bus driver and if something more suitable for you came along you'd eventually leave. We can't afford that."
 
Originally posted by PDJ@Jul 23 2007, 06:08 PM
Colin, there will always be an idle element in society but all of the people with whom I went to university have good jobs and none of them are in the situation where they are not paying back their loans. In order to avoid paying back your student loans, you need to be earning under £15,000.
Wrong i'm afraid Paul, you need to be earning over 85% of the national average so at the moment you need to be earning 23k +
 
HMG is screwing up the lives of many enthusiastic youngsters by ensuring that even those who achieve poor exam results can get a place at a college. unfortunately they get nowt from the courses. Disillusioned they drift.
I have friends who set up informal apprenticeships for their employees and whilst initial pay is not much different to the minimum if the individual begins to contribute to the business and pursues their studies diligently then they get a worthwhile uplift. Don't underestimate the buzz you get when you help someone develope and they reciprocate with loyalty.

There are also some very decent firms such as the company that employed my nephew who had achieved very good A-levels despite having to study in his bedroom which he shared with two of his younger brothers. They persuaded him to go to college on a part-time basis, paying him to attend and by the time he qualified as a surveyor ( one of the best in his year) he was already on above industry average salary. What's more they gave him a bonus and persuaded him to take a sabbatical six months travelling the world during which time they would put aside his salary so that he would have a substantial lump sum when he returns.

One cannot expect every employer to follow that example but HMG should compel larger employers to give apprenticeships and incentivise smaller firms. There would need to be a body to prevent abuse of schemes but I believe it would be to the benefit of employees, employers and sociey as a whole.
 
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