Ascot Guineas Trials

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Ardross

Senior Jockey
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Anyone else remember them ? Some very good horses won them even when they were packed off to Salisbury as Ascot had ground problems .

With Ascot now having its much improved drainage and there being a big gap between the LIncoln and Craven - in which this meeting used to sit - might it be a time to bring it back - perhaps with a valuable sprint handicap and the old White Rose Stakes thrown in.
 
Sir Ivor , Rousillon , The Minstrel all won the 2000 trial . Full Dress won the 1000 trial but lots of very good fillies won it - Dafayna, Sanedtki, Meis El Reem, Polygamy etc
 
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It does feel that ascots flat season does start pretty late but surely guineas trials are out there with Betamax videos and Oxford bags? Aren't we living in the past a bit?

With btb here and please, no more sprint handicaps
 
I just should like to see some proper Flat racing between the Lincoln and the Craven - not endless AW crap with the odd dull card from Leicester and Ponty thrown in.
 
The Craven, Free Handicap and Nell Gwyn diminish in stature each year - additional Guineas trials are definitely not necessary.

I'd like to see a large bonus put up for winning one of the Newmarket trials and then the 1,000 or 2,000 - that should make them a bit more competitive.
 
Isn't the problem that there are so few Guineas trials now that you more or less line up against half the 2000G field if you go for the Craven or the Greenham? We've lost the Ascot 2000G, The Thirsk Classic Trial (and yes a 2000G winner won it), the Kempton 2000G trial and the Blue Riband Stakes, for just the colts. There are a similar set for the fillies.
In 1970 Highest Hopes won the Ascot 1000G trial and followed up with a win in the Fred Darling. OK she unaccountably flopped in the Guineas but she did end up the top filly of her year.
 
I think improved training facilities and regimes also mean that runners can be brought to peak fitness more readily at home, reducing the need for trials to a degree.

Obviously some connections still like to see racecourse evidence in advance of the Guineas.

Re the Thirsk Guineas Trial? Did Tap On Wood win it?
 
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Remember that time when two of the best milers for years and years turned up for the Greenham?

Oh yeah, that was 2 years ago.
 
Gareth Flynn said:
Remember that time when two of the best milers for years and years turned up for the Greenham?

Oh yeah, that was 2 years ago.
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With the best will in the world, what has that got to do with the price of apples?

Does that mean we need more Guineas Trials? Nobody is advocating abolishing all remaining trials, but I think we certainly don't need any more. Let's have a look at the winners of the two main trials over the past 10 years. It makes for pretty grim reading if you ask me.

2003 Hurricane Alan & Muqbil
2004 Haafhd & Salford City
2005 Democratic Deficit & Indesatchel
2006 Killybegs & Red Clubs
2007 Adagio & Major Cadeaux
2008 Twice Over & Paco Boy
2009 Delegator & Vocalised
2010 Elusive Pimpernel & Dick Turpin
2011 Native Khan & Frankel
2012 Trumpet Major & Caspar Netscher

Does anybody really think that more trials = better horses coming out earlier. What you will have is the above two races being diluted just like all other Guineas trials have been before and we will be lucky to have one Group 3 trial in the spring.

The proliferation of good autumn races, and the ability of most modern trainers to go to Newmarket with a good horse first time out means that we have very few good animals wanting to run in Guineas trials. Hosting more trials would seem to me to be self-defeating.
 
We're in agreement Bar - nostalgia isn't an argument for more Guineas trials and cherry picking a few top class horses that happened to turn up in them in the 60s/70s is pointless. The trials that remain will still attract a few class horses if their trainers think that they're useful (e.g. Cecil needing to give Frankel's over-exuberance an outlet) and there's little reason for today's versions of The Minstrel or Sir Ivor to go over to Britain unless its specifically for the experience of travelling (notwithstanding that APOB has more or less perfected the art of having them ready to go on Guineas day without a prep anyway).
 
The more I think of it, the more I think the Flat turf season should start mid-April.

An opening week "Festival" across the country containing the Lincoln, Brockelsby, Greenham, Craven, Nell Gwyn, Fred Darley, John Porter, Abernant, Earl of Sefton, etc. might even get me interested in the start of the season.
 
There are 24 entries for the Nell Gwyn !

Lots of placed horses and subsequent G 1 winners have run in the trials even if they have not won the Guineas. They are not in decline at all IMO .

What is unfortunate is how the Free Handicap which was a lucrative prize for horses just below the top level and was an exciting and important race has been starved of cash . The Craven meeting continues to have lots of very good races that are far superior to much of what C 4 shows for the rest of the year at weekends . The 10f 3 yo handicap and the 3 yo 6f handicap are always very good races and the former often contains group performers.

It was depressing this week that as Newmarket trumpeted its £800,000 prize money increase that much has been added to already very lucrative races and the Craven meeting is getting very little of it and no doubt Channel 4 are partly to blame.
 
Bar the Bull said:
There was a big field for the Nell Gwynn last year, and it was barely listed standard.

It is sad how the Free Handicap has declined, but I would argue that it is in response to demand.
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It is in response to the way when prize money rose elsewhere it was left to rot . In 1991 when the 2000 Guineas winner Mystiko won it was worth £25,332 to the winner - last year 21 years on it was worth £18,714 to the winner.

In real terms that is about £60,000 to the winner !
 
I suspect that is because Toronado and Dundonnell have scared the rest off - also these trials are simply much less valuable than they once were.
 
The unexpected highlight of going to the Leger last year ended up being seeing Toronado beat Dundonnell in the Champagne. Lovely looking horse. Thought he looked more of a Derby type but although he's by a Derby winner there's not too much stamina on the dam's side.
 
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