Badgers And Tb Diet Question

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Ardross

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Fascinating piece on TB this morning by a farmer who had both organic and non organic dairy herds. The former were led on clover and the latter on maize . They discovered that the non organic herd got TB but the organic herd did not .

There is apparently a link between low selenium intake and the operation of the thyroid gland and this may explain the resistence of the organic cows as the diet of the others were low in selenium . Also badgers like maize too and they may also have had their resistence affected .

A study is now being carried out as since the diet of the non organic cows was changed they have not had any TB for 6 years and not one badger has been killed.
 
A DISEASE IN THE MEAT CHAIN WILL KILL YOU ALL.
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PS Not directed at Ardy who is a vegetarian (although he will probably entire a decline once lie detectors become the norm).
 
But badgers don't exclusively eat maize, James, whereas the corn-eating cattle were presumably fed it exclusively? The organic cattle would be eating a variety of green stuff and the non-organic nothing but starches and sugars if that is what their diets were. Badgers like maize if they can get it, but then pheasants also like maize when they can get it, and while I don't know of pheasants getting TB, perhaps Julie will?

I would have thought that feeding any animal an exclusively unnatural diet would lower its immune defences, just as human defences are lowered on unnaturally high-fat, high-starch 'fast food' diets, no?
 
Ah - just thought of something! Over in the USA, there used to be (and there might still be) adverts in restaurants proclaiming 'corn fed beef', implying that the meat was better than non-corn fed beef. Now, I've not heard of any TB outbreaks in the USA with corn-fed or non-corn fed beef. Since they grow so much corn, they have no problem with feeding millions of steers the stuff. They also have the kind of wild life we have, which might enjoy munching corn when they can get it, and yet there doesn't appear to be any data linking these to outbreaks of TB in their cattle herds. Could that be because the US ranchers vaccinate against the disease, which has always struck me as infinitely sensible? As in, if you know an animal is prone to getting a particular disease, you try to prevent it happening? :confused:

Julie, what knowest thou?
 
When a herd has a TT, the cattle are given two different tests - one is for bovine TB and one is for avian TB - the results are read four days later and the vets always place the avian TB test above the bovine one - that's why farmers know if they have reactors, because you'll hear them muttering 'the bird flies over the cow' as they check to see if the lowest test has reacted ! So yes, all avians can get avian TB!

There have been many suggestions as to the level of minerals, trace elements and vitamins and the incidence of TB - selenium is one, zinc another and it is common knowledge that the accuracy of the tests themselves are influenced by trace element levels.

The likelihood of maize as a source of infection could only be factored in if the organic herd had been fed on organic maize silage and then the anecdotal evidence would have been much stronger. However, also anecdotally, I can certainly see the logic of this, as badgers adore maize and can cause quite amazing amounts of devastation to a maize crop and also clamped maize silage and, regardless of whether low selenium levels are a root cause of TB, if they were carriers it wouldn't have been difficult for them to have infected the cattle, sadly.

There also a lot of other factors to take into account. Presumably, he has two separate farms (well, he must have if he's running organic and non-organic herds!) and it would have been useful to know the actual numbers of badgers on each farm. I still believe excessive numbers which are pressured as to territory are more likely to to be susceptible to any kind of disease.

Changing the diet of his cattle and removing a prime source of 'free' food for the badgers may well have resulted in a lowering of the badger numbers. It will be interesting for us this year as Phil has only one field of maize scheduled and so 'our' badgers will find food a little harder to come by.

Did the farmer blood test his organic and non-organic herds for their trace elements? I'm about to buy in some Belgian Blue cross heifers and the first thing that will happen to them is a routine blood test to see if they have any deficiencies and then they will be routinely injected with a vitamin/trace element booster to compensate.

It's certainly an interesting study and I am sure it can do no harm in maintaining the correct levels of trace elements etc to promote herd health.

Although I know you will hear about angry farmers who want mass destruction of badgers, you ought to be able to realise that, like any other media reporting, they are chosen because they are 'interesting' to the listener. I am in a TB hot-spot and I know an awful lot of farmers and I haven't yet come across anyone who wants mass culling of badgers. What they do want is a TB test that is totally accurate, they want selective culling of infected badgers sets (which would appear to be a real possibility now that research has been completed that can tell which setts are infected) and a properly co-ordinated effort by DEFRA to ensure that, as farmers are taking the full cost of pre-movement testing themselves, that it is should be done in tandem with a measured cull. No one can see the point of pre-movement testing if one half of the equation still isn't dealt with!

There is no moral difference between a dead badger and a dead cow. If we can develop a system whereby TB can be eliminated and not the animals, that is where all our efforts and taxes should be directed.
 
First I don't eat fowl

Second, the point was not that the maize was infected but that it was very low in selenium and the badgers were noshing it too . This apparently had an effect on the thyroid and this is a major factor in TB , I missed exactly why that wa sthe case.

Third, it was on the today programme so might be retrievable on listen again and the interesting thing was that it was in an area where there was otherwise a lot of TB
 
Originally posted by Ardross@Apr 5 2006, 10:52 AM
Second, the point was not that the maize was infected but that it was very low in selenium and the badgers were noshing it too . This apparently had an effect on the thyroid and this is a major factor in TB , I missed exactly why that wa sthe case.

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But how can you differentiate between badgers eating the maize and infecting the maize, James? If you saw just what a mess badgers make when they pile into the maize pit, you'd understand my point better.

It's well documented that maize is low in selenium - that's why most responsible dairy farmers add supplements to their herd's dietary intake - my point being that this is anecdotal only - no proper controls in place to make the findings stand up properly.

How do you then account for organic herds which are infected with TB? And which don't feed maize?

I agree that the less stressed animals are (and intensive farming methods stress animals), then the better their resistance is to routine ills but I know of plenty of suckler herds who lead very stress-free lives, fed on grass silage only and evey now and then will have a reactor!

Unfortunately, TB is complex disease and to eradicate it - if we feel we do have to eradicate it of course - then there are probably going to have to be many different ways of doing so, some of which are not pleasant....
 
Originally posted by Ardross@Apr 5 2006, 12:06 PM
I don't differentiate . I was just relaying the report .
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Well, in the interests of pedantry - which I know is dear to your heart, James, I have to point out that your topic heading actually includes the word 'question', hence the responses generated.

If, however, you had just used the word 'report', we would, of course, realised that you have no opinion one way or the other.

Glad that's cleared that up, then :P
 
Au contraire Julie it is a question whether the diet of badgers and cows contributes to their susceptibility to TB .
 
So you'd need to feed the non-organic AND the organic herds on clover, and two more identical herds on maize, and see what happened. Where, though, one has to ask, do the feedstuffs come from? Was the maize UK-sourced, or was it from a foreign country? Had it been treated with any pesticide or herbicide? (In other words, was the maize itself organic or not? It would make a significant difference if the non-organically managed herd were being fed chemicals through the maize, which their livers would have to spend precious energy expunging.)

Far, far too many questions are raised by the few words of the 'report' to convey enough scientific analysis for me to feel excited one way or the other. Even if all kinds of tests were done, I doubt I'd feel excited, anyway. Doesn't look like the selenium uptake issue is anything new.
 
Maize silage

Those fields you see full of corn-on-the-cob (maize) are harvested using a forager - the same machine that is used to collect and chop grass during the silage season. As the machine cuts the maize, it gets fed into the forager and is chopped up and blown out through the chute into the silage trailers which are alongside (very much like combining arable crops).

The maize is then carted back to the silage clamps, dumped and then a bloke on either a tractor or multi-purpose farm vehicle (Merlo etc) trundles up and down the maize until it is well compressed - more loads being put on top and compressed as the harvest progresses. The clamp is then sheeted down and those bloody tyres blaced on top (horrible, horrible job - I hate getting nabbed to do that one).

To feed the cattle, the maize is loaded into a feeder wagon, where any extra rations such as additives (selenium anyone??) are also added and it all gets mixed together before being emptied into the cattle cribs... where upon it is hoovered up by the cattle.

And I'm now off to feed mine and get my two remaining broodmares in. I am in deep shit with REACH THE WIND and her yearling, as they got turfed out yesterday full-time - they are NOT happy!!
 
Some more anecdotal evidence (and an small insight into why farmers hate DEFRA)

Not far from us there's a very concentrated area noted as a TB hot-spot and TB testing is carried out every 12 months. All the farms regualrly get reactors and are on shut-down (ie, unable to move their stock off the farm unless directly to slaughter). Apart from one farm, that is.

DEFRA noted that this farm repeatedly tested clear and became very suspicious. A full investigative team was sent in and the farmer was questioned as to what he was doing to keep his cattle clear. He freely volunteered the information that he fed a high dose of selenium to his cattle.

Which of course supports the report James posted above.

All well and good, one would think but no! DEFRA then accused the farmer of trying to alter his TB test results by deliberately using selenium, as they admitted that increased levels of selenium affect the testing procedure by masking the presence of TB - ie, affect the sensitiviy of the test itself!!! And they tried to get him to stop adding it!

Doncha just love 'em??

And yes, many farmers have followed this example but it obviously isn't that simple and is obviously a multi-factoral problem as it doesn't always work (altho' so far so good here.... B) ).
 
I went back and listened to the report on the Today prog website . It was about 8.50 on yesterday's prog and can be heard on listen again .

The reason he had both non organic and organic was that he was in the process of conversion to organic . One of the steps they have been taking is putting food , comprising of molasses and something else near the badger sets with vitamins and minerals and particular selenium every few months.

So the idea is I think that if you improve the diet of badgers they become more TB resistant and don't give it to the cows .

What is striking is that they have not had one case in six years in a TB hotspot in Gloucestershire.
 
Now THAT really is very, very interesting. Farmers and DEFRA may have it a bit arse-about-face (with respect to cattle farmers, Julie!) - keep your BADGERS free of TB with selenium, and then there's no chance that they will spread the disease to anything. DEFRA sounds completely doolally - what can you expect from people who consigned millions of cattle to pyres? They probably can't wait to find out if the swan in Fife has the mutating strain of bird flu, so that they can kill everything with feathers.

If Selenium is such a whizz-bang at preventing TB, then it surely should be administered to all human patients showing early signs, especially preventatively to applying immigrants from countries where TB and public spitting is culturally the norm (most of Africa, Asia, and Arab countries). I wonder if there's any medical research to show that such countries' natives are typically low in Selenium?
 
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