Ballytrim Wins Over Hurdles On 2nd Attempt

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Ballytrim's victory over hurdles in only his second attempt over the smaller obstacles started me thinking about Mullins' policy, particularly with the O'Leary horses, of sending them straight over fences, bypassing hurdles.

It took Ballytrim 7 attempts at cahsing before he got his first win. Missed That was beaten at odds on on his fencing debut.

Is there an argument that Mullins is asking these horses too much too soon by missing out hurdles altogether? I know Florida Pearl got away with it, and that all three of these horses had won point to points. But doesn't hurdling teach them to jump at a much faster pace so that when sent chasing the larger size of the obstacle is compensated for by the slower pace they run in chases as opposed to hurdles?
 
Errr Missed That went on to win his next three novice chases (including 2 Grade 1s), disappointed at Cheltenham but then won impressively at Punchestown. I am actually a big believer in system of certain horses skipping hurdles altogether. Often hear trainers say they cannot wait to see him go over fences…well why bother waiting? Horses can pick up bad habits over hurdles.Ballytrim just was not good enough. Greatly over hyped after an impressive bumper win.
 
If it is a problem, then it is insignificant compared to the one of trainers running chasers over hurdles first becaue it is the "done thing".

(Edit: As Galileo says.)
 
I recall Mullins saying that about bad habits when he sent Florida Pearl over fences, by-passing hurdles.

I just wonder what the "bad habits" are. Best Mate, possibly one of most economical and fastest jumpers we have seen, certainly didn't seem to be adversely effected by hurdling. With the likes of Well Chief, Azertyuiop and Moscow Flyer, all top class hurdlers, their spells over the smaller obstacles could also be linked to their slicker and fast jumping techniques once sent chasing.

Paul Nicholls is without doubt the best trainer of National Hunt horses today, and he makes no secret that most of his stock are bought to go chasing. Yet he seems to have no problem at all with hurdles. Surely if Mullins' theory had some substance to it Nicholls would send more of his horses straight over fences?

Even some of his ex-French chasers, such as Neptune Collonges and Granit Jack, spent a season hurdling here.
 
Neptune Collonges and Granit Jack werent eligible for novice chases and would be pitched in against handicappers (high class ones at that) as young horses.

There would be some basis to your arguement, if Missed That hadnt won 2 grade 1s, a grade 2, and over 100K in prizemoney in his novice season. Or Florida Pearl didnt win the Sun Alliance Chase.
 
I believe quite a few French trainers believe in starting off in whichever discipline your horse is intended for and sticking to it, as they then learn to jump in the correct manner for what they are going to do. Makes sense to me.
 
Garney, I am not denying Missed That's subsequent record, nor Florida Pearl's for that matter.

Having unexpectedly seen Ballytrim's name on Ceefax I checked out the result and saw to my surprise it was a hurdle. Which got me thinking about Mullins' reasoning.

Having given it some thought I realised he seems to be the only trainer to have stated publicly hurdles can teach horses bad habits.

I then considered this in the light of the Paul Nicholls regime and also looked at the top class chasers I mentioned who had progressed via the hurdling ranks.

I am not of the opinion all horses should be campaigned the same way just because its the done thing. Equally, I am also of the view that the best trainer of steeplechasers in a generation (Nicholls) would not be in the business of giving his future chasing stars a hurdling programme if he suspect it would "teach them bad habits".

Controversial as this may be to suggest on this forum, but could another trainer have got more out of Florida Pearl and indeed Missed That (ie chasing victories at Cheltenham) if a more orthodox approach had been taken.
 
All horses are different. Some take to hurdling better than chasing. Some the other way round. Just depends on the horse. Chasing tends to suit horses that travel well whereas over hurdles you can be scrubbed along without too much difficulty. So whatever suits the horse I guess. I' m sure the maturity of the horse is key too. One of ur horses has a great engine but is not mentally tuned into jumping yet. So he is running over hurdles rather than fences until he cops on. Then he will be put over fences.
 
I would think that it is possible for a horse to pick up ""bad habits", hurdling is a very different technique to chasing.

I'm sure Shadow Leader will give a more experienced and expert opinion than mine though.
 
Who said he has done it with all his horses though? Certain horses he does it with but others (Alexander Banquet, Scotsirish, Glencove Marina) have all gone over hurdling first.

Simply because Paul Nicholls does something does not necessarily mean he is correct and the best at it.
 
There isnt a trainer in the world that would have got Missed That to beat Voy Por Ustedes or Monet's Garden over 2m, especially giving weight.

Cooldine of course won a 2m6f hurdle today for O'Leary and Mullins. Be My Royal is another that was given a hurdling campaign.

OF course, half the people who post on the internet assume that they would know more about training horses than Willie Mullins.
 
I can only speak from personal experience, but Brendan Powell is quite confident Bay Hawk will be fine over the fences.

Remember also that many trainers school their hurdlers over fences so that they learn to respect them. Horses are not stupid and a good jockey will be able to give clear instructions when they arrive at the fence/hurdle as to what is required.

I would assume a good trainer can school a horse over both hurdles although clearly if your horse is not that quick, perhaps it's much better to go straight to fences where speed between fences is not so much of an issue. Bay Hawk isn't exactly quick but he can gallop... and gallop... and gallop... and hopefully jump a hurdle or fence too on his way to the finishing line.

The stamp and shape of a horse can possibly play a part too. A big rangey horse with a big stride may be sent straight to fences by some trainers.

Interesting subject.....
 
Willie Mullins is top class

With Florida Pearl he did it superb, it was a cracking horse but trainer place him to win plenty of good races.
 
Originally posted by Colin Phillips@Feb 7 2008, 02:24 PM
I would think that it is possible for a horse to pick up ""bad habits", hurdling is a very different technique to chasing.
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There is that - and also as Cantoris says, some things suit some horses better than others. If a horse looks like an obvious chasing candidate, jumps chase fences beautifully at home, why send it over hurdles at said risk of teaching it to jump differently? Hurdles and fences are jumped in a different style, although that's not to say that style isn't interchangeable or a horse can learn to jump a fence after jumping hurdles.

It all depends on what suits the animal concerned - a lot are green or big and weak and benefit greatly from having an education over hurdles before switching to the bigger obstacles when they are a bit more experienced and better equipped to handle jumping fences. That said, some horses (especially big strong chasing types that are easily apparent from an early age) are better suited to going straight over fences rather than going hurdling. Some simply don't jump hurdles cleanly, fast or low enough to bother sending them to compete in that discipline so there would be little point in doing so.

Some of it may also depend on training methods - some trainers have schooled their young horses over fences before they have even debuted in a bumper yet some will wait until they have run in bumpers to school them. If a bumper horse shows particular aptitude in jumping fences at home, it isn't thought that it will have the speed to run over hurdles or that the discipline will suit and is string enough mentally and physically to go chasing, it can sometimes make sense to send them over fences without wasting time over hurdles.
 
I think you'll also find that Ballytrim is being laid out for the Irish National

To be honest, there were some races last year where I thought the horse wasn't trying a leg. He's on a decent mark now and hasn't gone over the bigger ones this year.

Watch and see
 
Would agree with Bobbyjo - there where times last year when he was held up so much that he was never even in the race.
 
I followed Ballytrim closely last season and he was some horse to come on and off the bridle.More then once he went odds on in running on betfair then fairly long odds then odds on again only to lose the race in the end.Despite what Irish Stamp says I believe he was campaigned fairly and openely last season.From yesterdays race there are two possibilities 1)he has improved since last season or 2)he is a better hurdler then chaser.Personally I believe he has any amont of improvement in him over fences and no better man then WPM to exploit it.
 
I take on board what your saying about him looking a non trier at times but equally he looked a very poor jumper also.
 
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