I currently am looking at going into breeding at the back end of this year I currently have two colts but Im looking at the mare side of things at the moment. As a businessman it appears to me there may well be value in buying a foal with a good pedigree or maybe two and let them develop and see how they turn out hopefully half decent as opposed to buying a filly with some black type. Has anyone any advice please?
Breeding
- Thread starter beardo
- Start date
That question would fill an average novel.....
All I can say is that if I were starting again, I would buy the best filly out-of-training I could afford, with as much black type as I could afford, insure her to the hilt and go to the best stallion I could afford!!!!
I would also probably buy privately with the vendor agreeing to stand behind the filly if she didn't breed.
All I can say is that if I were starting again, I would buy the best filly out-of-training I could afford, with as much black type as I could afford, insure her to the hilt and go to the best stallion I could afford!!!!
I would also probably buy privately with the vendor agreeing to stand behind the filly if she didn't breed.
Well tbh honest the money isn't so much the issue it is getting the thing right from the start like you said. Maybe a mix of a proven in training filly and a foal maybe an idea?
Im just thinking that with all these new stallions coming to market and the economic environment there may be bargains to be had by buying fillies out of these new stallions???
Im just thinking that with all these new stallions coming to market and the economic environment there may be bargains to be had by buying fillies out of these new stallions???
crazyhorse
At the Start
I do not want to sound rude, but if money is no issue get a decent adviser BEFORE getting the first mare. breeding takes ages and as you know the best way of making a small fortune in racing is to start with a big one ?! you need a decent stud to board them, people who really now what the crack is (take Songsheet, you couldnt be in better hands) and get your advise when going to the sales with people who really know what they are talking about. and as about 9 from 10 new sires prove a failure at stud, use decent bloodlines. there sure enough are bargains to be made, but sure enough breeding is not the way to make a quick buck.
Not looking to make a quick buck and I have certainly got someone in place with the buying and advice but as I have learnt in life you can never have too much info imo and certainly the more opinions you get on subjects the better. from what I read here most of the people on this site have a true love for horses and the sport as i do and their knowledge can be as insightful as the so called pro's cos sometimes they have a clouded and biased view
Colin Phillips
At the Start
Good luck, beardo.
Sheikh
At the Start
Sounds to me like you need to decide what it is your getting into. If it is breeding than buy a mare in foal at the breeding Sale. I don't know why you would want to buy a foal in the current climate. People are going to the wall so bargains are a plenty. The one thing you can't buy is time so why buy a foal ?
If you fancy racing your own before breeding than buy at the breeze-ups.You'll be waiting around long enough for something to happen without putting yourself in the way of the heartache of buying a foal as a prospective broodmare.
If you fancy racing your own before breeding than buy at the breeze-ups.You'll be waiting around long enough for something to happen without putting yourself in the way of the heartache of buying a foal as a prospective broodmare.
Beardo, if I've got this right (bear with me, I'm a bit slow on the uptake at times), you're thinking of buying a nicely-bred filly foal, with a view to keeping her to breed from? In that case, you'll be waiting around 4-5 years, with her doing no more than cost you keep until she can be bred from, unless you plan to race her in the interim - which doesn't seem to be your plan.
So, you'll have an unraced mare to offer prospective buyers of her future foals? She won't have any race history and thus won't have a smudge of black type against her name. That really only works if she's by a stallion that everyone wants, one which has not only demonstrated his skills in racing, but also in begetting winners. It is so not a good idea to send an unraced mare to an unproven (or new) sire unless she has a bloodline that's currently desirable.
Otherwise, Songsheet's given you the benefit of some 30+ years experience in breeding in a nutshell, and all I can say is, if you've got the money, then follow it. You'll also need adequate stabling and sufficient field facilities for the mare and her own foal, someone who knows how to handle mares and foals, you'll need to pay someone to prep her offspring for the foal sales, pay for transport to the sale, and pay the sale's entry fee.
Just as an example for you, I bought a 5 y.o. unraced DANETIME (not as good as DANEHILL DANCER, but still got the wanted DANEHILL genes) mare i/f to new sire MAJESTIC MISSILE. I paid £5000 for her out of Goff's sales in Naas last year. There were transportation costs from Ireland to Songsheet's farm in Somerset, there was her keep at the farm, there were the vet's fees to both the mare and subsequent colt foal, then her and the foal's additional keep, around £300 in preparation fees for the foal for the sale, transport to the sale, and a £540 sale entry fee. Altogether, I probably forked out a total of around £7000. The colt sold for the minimum bid (800 guineas) = £840 and was sold to an Irish stud, who's pinhooking him for sales later this year. I'll let you do the Maths on that, see the loss made, and that was at the very cheap end of the business.
If you looked over any of last year's sales catalogues and noted how many foals were returned home unsold, and how many didn't make either their reserves or even the minimum bid - well, I wouldn't want to put you off, but the adage about the way to make a small fortune in breeding is to start with a large one, came all too true for even the biggest, the most experienced and highly-regarded studs, as much as the small-time breeder.
So, you'll have an unraced mare to offer prospective buyers of her future foals? She won't have any race history and thus won't have a smudge of black type against her name. That really only works if she's by a stallion that everyone wants, one which has not only demonstrated his skills in racing, but also in begetting winners. It is so not a good idea to send an unraced mare to an unproven (or new) sire unless she has a bloodline that's currently desirable.
Otherwise, Songsheet's given you the benefit of some 30+ years experience in breeding in a nutshell, and all I can say is, if you've got the money, then follow it. You'll also need adequate stabling and sufficient field facilities for the mare and her own foal, someone who knows how to handle mares and foals, you'll need to pay someone to prep her offspring for the foal sales, pay for transport to the sale, and pay the sale's entry fee.
Just as an example for you, I bought a 5 y.o. unraced DANETIME (not as good as DANEHILL DANCER, but still got the wanted DANEHILL genes) mare i/f to new sire MAJESTIC MISSILE. I paid £5000 for her out of Goff's sales in Naas last year. There were transportation costs from Ireland to Songsheet's farm in Somerset, there was her keep at the farm, there were the vet's fees to both the mare and subsequent colt foal, then her and the foal's additional keep, around £300 in preparation fees for the foal for the sale, transport to the sale, and a £540 sale entry fee. Altogether, I probably forked out a total of around £7000. The colt sold for the minimum bid (800 guineas) = £840 and was sold to an Irish stud, who's pinhooking him for sales later this year. I'll let you do the Maths on that, see the loss made, and that was at the very cheap end of the business.
If you looked over any of last year's sales catalogues and noted how many foals were returned home unsold, and how many didn't make either their reserves or even the minimum bid - well, I wouldn't want to put you off, but the adage about the way to make a small fortune in breeding is to start with a large one, came all too true for even the biggest, the most experienced and highly-regarded studs, as much as the small-time breeder.
I
ItalianStallion
Guest
How far back do you go when reading the blood line to interpriting the actually relevence of the final product (the horse)?
I think Songsheet will be tucked up in Nodland, ready to get up in three hours and start her rounds of the farm, IS, but most UK breeders tend to select for sprinting to middle-distance produce. You've only got to view the average race card to see that races for distance horses are few - usually just one 1m 4f, as against six or seven other races from 5f to a mile. A lot of people bemoan the fact, but that's the shape of racing as it is now.
So you aren't looking much further than what the immediate sire did (or didn't do), plus issues such as soundness. Songsheet (and I in previous co-operation with her with two mares) looked for a TYPE of animal: sound, a bit bossy (i.e. confident), sprint-bred, compact in shape. That's what we wanted to breed, and we went to that type of stallion. We went to CARNIVAL DANCER, TRADE FAIR, COMPTON PLACE x 2, ICEMAN (sadly deceased just before the foal sales last year, which impacted on his progeny's saleability - another blow for his supporters). We also bought a mare i/f to the utterly useless AGNES WORLD (spit!), but the filly foal by him sold for a nice £23,000, which gave us a small profit each. Sadly, his progeny have turned out to be rubbish, proving that a great performance on track doesn't always equate with a great performance at stud! And, prior to the DANETIME mare being sold, I put her i/f to PICCOLO, a nice medium-range (as in price and ability) fellow with a nice shape and ability to produce sprinters. Regrettably, the sire fee was £3000 and I only got £1000 for the mare - she went off to Ireland to join her colt, the one who sold for the minimum bid! Another loss, but that was the overall tone of last year's breeding, which saw studs reduce their sires' fees by thousands of pounds for 2009.
So you aren't looking much further than what the immediate sire did (or didn't do), plus issues such as soundness. Songsheet (and I in previous co-operation with her with two mares) looked for a TYPE of animal: sound, a bit bossy (i.e. confident), sprint-bred, compact in shape. That's what we wanted to breed, and we went to that type of stallion. We went to CARNIVAL DANCER, TRADE FAIR, COMPTON PLACE x 2, ICEMAN (sadly deceased just before the foal sales last year, which impacted on his progeny's saleability - another blow for his supporters). We also bought a mare i/f to the utterly useless AGNES WORLD (spit!), but the filly foal by him sold for a nice £23,000, which gave us a small profit each. Sadly, his progeny have turned out to be rubbish, proving that a great performance on track doesn't always equate with a great performance at stud! And, prior to the DANETIME mare being sold, I put her i/f to PICCOLO, a nice medium-range (as in price and ability) fellow with a nice shape and ability to produce sprinters. Regrettably, the sire fee was £3000 and I only got £1000 for the mare - she went off to Ireland to join her colt, the one who sold for the minimum bid! Another loss, but that was the overall tone of last year's breeding, which saw studs reduce their sires' fees by thousands of pounds for 2009.
crazyhorse
At the Start
@beardo:
fine. as songsheet said: try to get the best mare you can afford, good female line with decent producers, as much BT as possible, board her with decent people, and start waiting. big studs always sell well-related mares out of training, I would love to able to afford a cast-off of the Aga Khan, for example.
i firmly believe you need to be in it with your heart as well, thats the whole fun about it. well, thats certainly the only way i can look at it. we have two mares over here, mother and daughter, and breed with both, "mother" was a smart racehorse, 5time winner and listed-placed and she was the horse that got me involved in ownership in the first place. i managed to buy her back some years ago, she is 16 now and has a lovely filly foal (now yearling) by nayef whom we are going to consign in baden-baden. "daughter" was bought as a yearling and did run for us, without winning, but she is close to out heart too, and her first offspring just started racing for a syndicate with friends. I know all about head and heart, but if you do not love what you are doing, why start ??
fine. as songsheet said: try to get the best mare you can afford, good female line with decent producers, as much BT as possible, board her with decent people, and start waiting. big studs always sell well-related mares out of training, I would love to able to afford a cast-off of the Aga Khan, for example.
i firmly believe you need to be in it with your heart as well, thats the whole fun about it. well, thats certainly the only way i can look at it. we have two mares over here, mother and daughter, and breed with both, "mother" was a smart racehorse, 5time winner and listed-placed and she was the horse that got me involved in ownership in the first place. i managed to buy her back some years ago, she is 16 now and has a lovely filly foal (now yearling) by nayef whom we are going to consign in baden-baden. "daughter" was bought as a yearling and did run for us, without winning, but she is close to out heart too, and her first offspring just started racing for a syndicate with friends. I know all about head and heart, but if you do not love what you are doing, why start ??