Bright Eyes

krizon

krizon

At the Start
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Found this Spanish anti-cruelty website while looking up info on bullfighting. It is worth a look, if it is only to remind ourselves how very, very far we as a species have to go in respecting others. The article and photos on the little dog Nataku are both gut and heart-wrenching. And, as I suspected, the revolting donkey torture 'fiesta' does still take place, in spite of Luis assuring me it no longer does. (Along with a host of other animal-torturing fun, I may add. I must say, the Spanish make foxhunting look pretty tame.) And wtf they've done to the cat in the photo, I really don't think I want to guess.

http://www.brighteyes.dk
 
Respectfully, Krizon, I have to say that the website appears to have an agenda of outright Hispanophobia as in "the sadism towards animals in Spain is extreme and is everywhere". And: "this is a country that has not advanced one millimetre since the Roman times,"
Somewhat hysterical and OTT. Obviously, there can only be the utmost condemnation of the cruelty towards that little dog and it would certainly not be condoned by any right-thinking Spaniard. But the cruelty in that instance was perpetrated by street thugs who unfortunately co-exist with us in all societies and countries. Innumerable instances are on record of puppies being thrown onto bonfires and other obscene acts of sadism being committed in our own cities and towns.

I also am very wary of the presently popular inclination of some (here in the British Isles) to actively involve themselves in the messianic mission to ridicule and condemn the Spanish for their fondness(?) for bullfighting and other animal-related activities. Such protestations of disgust and abhorrence only displays to the Spaniards a complete disregard and even ignorance of their customs and heritage. It comes across as all self-righteousness and ethnic superiority and does not go down well with the indigent Spanish (or the inhabitants of any other country that might be a target of such actions). How would we like it if rent-a-mob types from abroad were actively involved in protesting against perceived cruelties here?
 
At risk of incurring much wrath from the various types on here, I agree totally with what Icebreaker has said above. I didn't look at the website until now - & I agree with his observations. What people have to understand is that different cultures have different ideas as to what is right & what is wrong - does this give us the right to condemn them when it essentially has nothing to do with us? Not only that, but so much is made of the Spanish/Latino countries & their bullfighting, & they are widely condemned thus; but what about race such as the Chinese, who abandon newborn babies by the side of the road because they are female? It seems to me that crimes against humanity are tolerated far, far more than crimes against animals.
 
Originally posted by Shadow Leader@Jul 21 2005, 11:08 PM
What people have to understand is that different cultures have different ideas as to what is right & what is wrong - does this give us the right to condemn them when it essentially has nothing to do with us?
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The way that women are treated in fundamentalist Muslim countries?
 
I have to say, Brian, that I believe you have just re-inforced the veracity of SL's assertion -- that the anti-cruelty movement would be solely concerned with the Pamplona bull-run (for example) to the exclusion of any consideration at all about the sub-human treatment of women in fundamentalist countries.
 
I'm neither attempting to reinforce it or otherwise, I'm just pointing out that her statement is totally incorrect - the suggestion that we have no right to condemn the wrongs committed by others because their cultures are different. Of course that is wrong. Or perhaps, for example, we should have continued to support the apartheid government in South Africa?
 
But SL's position and point of view was in the context of animal cruelty -- not in the area of human-to-human inter-relationships. Whilst there is general consensus by all political and religious leaders on the "wrongness" of cruelty towards our fellow humans there is a more graded and debatable attitude towards what is the ethical treatment of animals. Societal mores and civilised values will always be against, for instance, the past slaughter in Rwanda or the present genocidal carry-on in the Congo. And we all, every human being without exception, condemn such obscenities. However, a universal and agreed position in the area of animal treatment is a lot less distinct. For example is fishing/angling immoral? Do fieldmice or house-flies have rights? By that reasoning, Shadow Leader is indeed correct in asserting that we have no legitimate right to pontificate to the Spanish on the rights and wrongs of their traditional and cultural pursuits. As long as we in this part of world continue to enjoy our Sunday roasts and wear patent leather shoes then we are in no position whatsoever to condemn the Spanish for our perception of what is unethical.
 
We have every right to condemn whatever we see as wrong anywhere. Or would you attempt to remove those rights? Others have tried unsuccessfully.
 
Originally posted by BrianH@Jul 22 2005, 09:55 AM
We have every right to condemn whatever we see as wrong anywhere.
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We have every right to condemn whatever we see as wrong anywhere.
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Perhaps yes, you do have that right to condemn. Unfortunately, by exercising that right in the context of animal welfare issues we leave ourselves open to self-portrayal as cranks and extremist do-gooders. Those (the Spanish in this intance) who are on the receiving end of such condemnation often feel that their cultural and traditional values are under attack.
 
Of course we are all free to condemn - but to what extent? I think that it is fundamentally wrong to attempt to stop another nation from doing something that is in their culture & they do not believe to be wrong. I don't see what right people have to occupy the moral high ground over another country's heritage just because they don't agree with it. I am sure the Spanish don't believe everything we Brits do is right either - but they don't necessarily go about kicking up an almighty fuss over it & attempting to have something banned. Ok, as an example - the Spanish value family life highly & teach their children to respect others - they certainly do not have the widespread hooliganism and disrespectful thugs that the British are now, woefully, famous for. I'm not saying they are perfect, but they most probably see the Brits as being cruel to their children by letting them grow into yobs. I also see it as ever so disrespectful, unfair & frankly rude to Suny Bay & Luis Martin for them to be openly told what a cruel nation they come from & for them to be subjected to being panned for defending a culture they have grown up with & admire.

Not only that, but another point I was trying to make appears to have been overlooked (except by Icebreaker) and that is that because this perceived outrageousness involves animals, there is uproar. If it involved humans rather than bulls, I do not think that there would be the same level of horror - after all, on this forum many, many lengthy threads & debates have been taken up regarding the perceived cruelty of omnivorism/fox hunting/game shooting/bull fighting/polo et al - now compare that to the tiny number regarding perceived cruelties involving humans.

In my eyes, this nation has become far too politically correct & too many people are too quick to jump on moral high horses & dish out accusations of cruelty, mainly invoving animals. We should ban hunting/shooting/fishing/polo/greyhound racing/whips/racing/eating meat/animal testing & so on - I strongly believe we are breeding a nation of tree-hugging do-gooders & it makes me sick.
 
Originally posted by Shadow Leader@Jul 22 2005, 01:42 PM
We should ban hunting/shooting/fishing/polo/greyhound racing/whips/racing/eating meat/animal testing & so on - I strongly believe we are breeding a nation of tree-hugging do-gooders & it makes me sick.
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:what: A disease in the food chain will kill you all. :what:
 
One thing I would point out is that while many people professed themselves to be anti-bullfighting on the bullfighting thread, very few, if any, of them even implied anti-Spanish sentiment as a result. I am anti-bullfighting but it does not colour my impression of the Spanish - if it did, I would equally have to be anti-English because I am anti-foxhunting. Don't confuse an aversion to a particular activity to an aversion to the nation in which that activity takes place.
 
Originally posted by simmo@Jul 22 2005, 02:55 PM
:what:  A disease in the food chain will kill you all.  :what:
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A disease in the food chain will kill you all.
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Nevertheless, 8/10
 
One minute you're banging on and on about how dastardly Mick Quinn was, Shadow Leader, and how he should never, ever be allowed back into racing, and now you're saying we shouldn't attack deliberate, contemplated, and ENJOYED animal cruelty in Spain? The Spanish who 'traditionally' add the baiting and torment of animals to spice up the gaiety of their fiestas are, frankly, abhorrent to me, but they're also apparently equally abhorrent to the good people of Barcelona, who are banning bullfighting within their city's precincts. They've condemned it as barbaric and outmoded, in the same way that we eventually got round to banning bear and bull-baiting in this country. (From which, our 'bull' terriers and dog, in case anyone didn't realize their provenance.)

As you're an avid supporter of foxhunting, Shadow, I take it that by your statements above, you're also an avid supporter of the Spanish in their 'animal entertainments'. That much doesn't really surprise me, only your double standards.

I don't care where cruelties raise their heads, they should be condemned, especially where the suffering of animals is entirely planned and deliberate. Dom, you really are a bit rich - you've condemned halal slaughter of animals as cruel, which pertains to millions of Muslims worldwide, or, adding on the Jews and their kosher practice, many millions more. So, you tell me, what's the difference about criticizing the Spanish, and criticizing Muslims and Jews? The difference seems to be that whatever you support is all right, whatever YOU condemn, isn't, and no-one else should ever argue contrariwise.
 
Muttley - surely you can't exist . I am told that avid lovers of NH racing like your goodself are madly in favour of hunting . Or so all the tossers trying to force stop the ban badges on us would have it ;)
 
Jon, I'm sorry you think I have double standards - although I can't actually see it myself! For starters, I tend to defend those ways of life that so many people are trying to get banned - not go off on one about them in the first place! As for the halal meat; I don't believe I have "gone off on one" over it (although I'm sure someone will happily contradict me...) - I think what I have actually done on occasion is point out that although the same old faces are happy to rant over hunting/shooting/fishing/eating meat/bull fighting blah blah blah (delete as applicable) the subject of halal meat is strangely avoided. Has the world gone so pc-mad that we are not allowed to mantion it as ( :ph34r: ) that could be viewed as being racist? (personally, I think comments such as I must say, the Spanish make foxhunting look pretty tame are more likely to be racist than commenting on the production of halal meat, but there you go) It's views like that that are inciting bloody racism, not the other way around! And I'm the one being accused of double standards!! :lol:

As for the assumption that
As you're an avid supporter of foxhunting, Shadow, I take it that by your statements above, you're also an avid supporter of the Spanish in their 'animal entertainments'. That much doesn't really surprise me, only your double standards.
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- well, in the last thread whereby I commented on bull fighting I did state that I was ambivalent on the subject of it, having not actually experienced a fight; something which I fully intend to do. I may well be sickened over it - but I'm not about to jump on the bandwagon & proclaim the Spanish as being cruel & bloodthirsty & want it to get banned! Which is what I've been saying, as per my previous posts. I simply don't see where people get off jumping on their moral high horse & proclaiming that something is cruel/evil/barbaric/bloodthirsty (again, delete as applicable) and should be banned - who are we to dictate what thousands of people can or can't do? That's my view anyway - and as you kow me, Jon, I ain't gonna change it! :D

I can't see where Mick Quinn comes into a debate over bull fighting either, tbh - having witnessed what he has done first hand, & having been on the receiving end of his unreasonablility, I reckon I'm fairly well qualified, & entitled, to slate him whereever/wnehever I can!
 
I recently saw a broadcast of an Australian entertainment event which involved chucking dwarves. It was quite creul in that they wouldn't even give the little feckers crash helmets to wear. I would like therefore, to wholeheartedly condemn Austrailia and all it's citizens.

Although I do wish Glen McGrath and Shane Warne well this weekend.
 
I simply don't see where people get off jumping on their moral high horse & proclaiming that something is cruel/evil/barbaric/bloodthirsty (again, delete as applicable) and should be banned - who are we to dictate what thousands of people can or can't do?
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I think being able to express an opinion is called freedom of speech, isn't it?

And if somebody hadn't got on their "moral high horse" we would still be bear baiting, dog fighting (legally), cock fighting (legally) and so on. Sometimes, too, thousands of people have to subordinate their wishes to the tens of thousands who form a majority - that's democracy.

:D Ardross - the badges are b******s ... :D
 
You either see no wrong in cats being tied to explosives, donkeys being crushed to death for the craic of it, and dazed bulls being speared to death by cheerful rustics, or you do. That it's institutionalized, organized, and condoned by a country's government makes it more revolting than just the occasional outburst of individual sadism, of which there's more than enough.

Personally, I feel that there is enough savagery between humans nowadays than to have to inflict the same on creatures which - I'm told - have little intelligence or the ability to fight back on equal grounds. As a species, we are supposed to be trying to raise the level of our consciousness, not debase it to sadistic blood-lust. When that sadism is condoned by a nation's government, it's even more revolting.

Shadow, you seem to have become very shouty these days, probably starting from the pro- and anti-foxhunting debate. If you can keep the level of insult to dissenters down a bit, it may help to progress this, or any, issue. If not, I have nothing more to discuss with you on this, since I'm not going to get pulled into a slanging match of ego vs. ego, rather than discuss the topic. But feel free to have the last word, because I've had mine.
 
Yes, you believe what you like, Colin.....and since you clearly meant what you said, why bother beating about the bush with the "I'm a little reluctant to say this but..."?!

Kri - I have no wish to get into a slanging match with you - clearly, neither of us are going to change our views so it's pointless debating it really. I'm sorry you feel I'm getting 'shouty' but as you say, we are all entitled to our opinion.
 
I'm not going to break up with people over a little light animal-torturing, HT - it'll only be when they've shot me a couple of times that I'll consider them just a tad hostile towards me.
 
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