Chester & Bangor axing Tote?

S

Soary Stars

At the Start
Joined
Jun 7, 2011
Messages
648
There's a story headed "Chester and Bangor set to axe Tote pool betting" on the RP site.
I can't view it though.

Is is true?
What are these 2 courses up to? Customer Service? :blink:
 
Yes, they're dumping the 'Tote' per se and they are going to run their own totes. With the Tote sold off to Fred Done, they would have had to have signed up to a new contract with him, and they've chosen not to do so. Their remit is, as per their own statement, to put part of the profit into upgrading/refurbishing their courses and the rest into their own prize monies, thus passing along some extra to the owners which the Levy Board is never going to do.

All they need is the software to kick it off with and then everything's in-house. I can see other courses thinking it's a damn good idea, too. Will buying the Tote be the undoing of Done?
 
"All they need is the software": the primrose path is beckoning! :)

Anyway, Tote operations that I've observed aren't a two-bit set-up ... but I don't have any special knowledge here.
 
Last edited:
They'll need the tills and the scanners, which obviously aren't cheap, but they'd be starting off on the right foot with keeping on ex-Tote staff who'd know how to work them. They'll have done the sums and figured that they'd be better off DIYing, in the same way that many courses now cater in-house, no longer pay agencies for raceday staff, and have their own stalls handlers. Even the raceday medical services are on contracts - Arena has decided to keep one company on contract for all of its courses, dumping local NHS emergency services, for example, no doubt getting a very much more competitive and more easily-administered one-stop shop deal for them.
 
Will you be able to bet into their Tote pools - what portals would they have access to?
Can they really hack it?
Will they just be another dumb user led by their IT-ignorant nose?
Sure, they like the smell of the money but will it be in their hands or waved under their noses?

Seen stuff like this before ....
 
It will just be money going out of "racing" via another route - rather than lining shareholders and company profits of bookmakers it will line the pockets of leisure companies and help Chester upgrade the racecourse and diversify more from their core product (racing) in the same way that bookmakers do with FOBT's, lottery etc.

They need someone who knows about running a Tote operative be it in South Africa, Australia, France, Hong Kong etc - those people don't come cheap and I can't see Chester being able to afford it, a racecourse run Tote IMO is likely to be about as effective for the customer as one run by Betfred. The take-out rate is the main reason that the current Tote system is uncompetitive and unless Chester are willing to slash their take of the turnover (which given the reasons listed by Kri earlier on I can't see being the case) then we'll just have the same situation that we have at the moment.
 
I've yet to go and have a peek, but a colleague informs me that Lingfield has installed slots in one of its bars - I'm not sure how that puts money into racing, IS, but perhaps you do?
 
I'd imagine the only way that you can ensure that all the money raised goes back into "racing" is by putting it directly back into prize money or funds for BTO awards etc. which I'd hope is what happens with the money at Lingfield. FWIW they only pay out a certain amount of the time Kri so X percent will be kept back and that money will be what goes into racing. A busy betting shop with three FOBT's will in my limited experience from working in them whilst at university (5 or 6 years ago) will typically take £2,000 per day over a period of 12 hours (9:30am to 9:30pm) though I'd imagine some racecourses will be busier than that and if the money is going into prize money then good luck to them - though I'm naturally sceptical about where exactly the money ends up and how it's distributed back into "racing".

The term "racing" is a very loose one as it stands anyway as if it goes back into prize money there's no guarantee that it will go back into buying horses, training fees, stablelads wages etc. any more so than if it goes into better lunches in the restaurant or better quality service in the O&T's bar. I always take issue with the term "racing" as used by the BHA, Horsemans Group etc. as it seems to exclude certain people who rely on horse racing for a living as it is.

I did note with interest that one of Haydock's betting areas (TV screens, newspapers on the wall, bar nearby etc) now also has FOBT's which will no doubt be taking money out of "racing" as it's non leviable and will take money out of the pockets of the racecourse bookmakers (who are now at some courses likely to be paying a "marketing" fee to the racecourse, though I have to say I'm sceptical as to whether this actually will be used for marketing particularly in light of the plugging that the Tote seems to receive at every race meeting and the OTT marketing from Betfair at Haydock yesterday).
 
Last edited:
You can be sure that what racecourses make does not go into any aspect of breeding, owning, training and related staff and costs. Why would it? A trainer makes his money out of owners and any other businesses, he doesn't pay a percentage to racecourses to help keep them going. Breeders get no help from anyone, apart from the slight EBF prize if something they've bred wins, and then only if it's by a sire standing in their own country. If they make a massive profit on a foal sale, they certainly don't have to divvy it up with any other aspect of racing.

All major sections of racing are standalones: the breeders, the trainers, the courses, the jockeys, the owners, and all of the periphery such as vets, grounds staff, officials, feed, transport, saddlery, farriery, you name it. Yet, without one or the other, it all falls apart. Thus 'racing' should be an umbrella term in a very broad sense, taking in all these assorted aspects.

Specifically, rather than generally, speaking, though, 'putting money back into racing' should mean - right now - boosting the prize money which the Levy Board is falling short of supplying. And it's falling short of supplying because of the rise of exchanges, which put nothing into the sport they parasitise, and offshore bookmakers likewise. Unless the British govt gets to grips with these issues, racecourses' prize money is only going to just meet the Tariff, and there will be a continuing and probably increasing reliance on sponsorship of races.

I don't have a problem with the Tote or bookmaking services being plugged if they're sponsoring significant amounts of racing - it's that they're not offering prize money in excess of bare Tariff levels (bar a few major races) that's cheapskating the sport. We see millions of pounds in profits accrue to the betting industry, while its payback to what gives it that money, sustains its little shops, its websites and its staff, is proportionally pathetic.

It's not in the betting industry's interest to see British racing wither and die, but as long as owners keep running their horses (all the bluster about boycotting has died without effect) and accepting the poxy prize monies on offer for standard levels of competition, it really won't give a XXXX about improving their lot.
 
Last edited:
What contribution do breeders make to racing?
they're at the top of the hill ... and, pace some forum members :), probably where the money is, too.
 
Last edited:
Youravinalarf, matey! I dunno, correct me if I'm wrong, but I kinda thought they actually produced the foals which turn into racehorses? Or are these now being made in a Chinese horse factory?

Have you the slightest idea of the cost of even a tiny breeding operation? I'm not a horse breeder - I went into partnership with Songsheet on six foals and another friend with TRY THE CHANCE's mum, already i/f to MAJESTIC MISSILE.

The reason I'm having to sell my flat is because of the losses I made (helped on enormously by freakin' AXA losing £22K of a £25K 'very low risk' bond I inherited). So that might give you an idea of how disastrously wrong it can go, especially when one foal dies at seven weeks, one is given away due to its sire (ICEMAN) dying four days before the foal sales, and the other (TTC) selling for the minimum bid of £840, rewarding me with a nett income of £75.

Don't even joke about it to me, SS: Sheikh is probably doing very well, and I hope to God he is and it stays that way. The really big studs still have to cope with dud foals, dead foals, dead mares and getting rid of the dross somehow. Even a highly-respected stud Songsheet works closely with has begotten 21 fillies from 28 foals this past season - there are some things you just cannot possibly predict, any more than you could find 21 straight winners at prices that'd keep you in wealth beyond the dreams of avarice.

It's true that most breeders can get a bit of a discount from sires if they're making repeat visits or sending a few mares at a time (as in, we got just £1,000 off one sire for sending a group of mares from two studs); it's true that a mare and foal won't cost quite as much as a racehorse in training each month, too, but if you'd like some figures, I can haul out some tax returns for you and let you know what they looked like, versus the returns at the sales. If you like horror movies, you'll love this!
 
Indeed Kri and the BHA would have us believe that racing cannot survive without £150m from the levy, which afterall is what they argued that racing "needed".

It is a struggle though to take owners and trainers seriously when they say they want more money, need more money, won't race for less and then you see Class 3 Conditions races worth £10,000 or so with 4 or 5 runners and Class 6 Handicaps being divided on an all too regular basis, add this to the state of the British bloodstock market at Tatts yearling and HIT sales and to a lesser extent Brightwells Cheltenham sales for NH horses and it's hard to see anything being done unless owners and trainers refuse to race.

I've had someone contact me on another forum regarding racing a horse in France and whether there'd be any suitable races for it at Cagnes-Sur-Mer on the AW over winter or at Deauville whilst I know Flame has run Evergreen Forest in France with success in the past few months. Only today Tom George ran three at Auteuil (one was running well when falling at the last, another finished runner-up and Tartak was tailed off).

Racing needs to accept that without the levy there wouldn't be any racing, without bookmakers, owners, breeders, trainers, stablestaff, betting shop staff, racecourse staff etc. there'd be no/very little racing - the sooner all sides can work together for the good of British racing the better, if not we'll just continue with the bickering that currently exists - the whip debacle, the gambling money heading overseas, the decent handicaps at the HIT sales going to Australia etc.

Martin
 
I've long been disgusted by the four or five horse turnout for Class 4's and Listeds at Lingfield, for example, Martin - yes, all that whining for more money and yet when it's presented, bugger all show up! Very disappointing for the punters, the course, and also, let's not forget, for jockeys, who could be getting better cuts of win and place prize monies but don't.

Right now, like geopolitics and international finance, it's all rather shambolic. It's a house of cards where no one element can exist without the other, so the sooner all parties pull steadily and strongly in one direction, the better. But the BHA and the ROA often don't see eye-to-eye (certainly not over prize money), the TBA is shunted aside like the daft aunt you keep in the attic, and has no clout at all, and you just never get the NTF involved in controversy because trainers don't want to offend big owners. And as for the PJA - was it, or wasn't it, consulted re the whip? Never The Same Story Twice.
 
krizon said:
I've long been disgusted by the four or five horse turnout for Class 4's and Listeds at Lingfield, for example, Martin - yes, all that whining for more money and yet when it's presented, bugger all show up! Very disappointing for the punters, the course, and also, let's not forget, for jockeys, who could be getting better cuts of win and place prize monies but don't.

.
Click to expand...

So long as the race is run a jockey is getting the prize money, an owner is having a photograph, and the horse gets a 1 in it's form.

It doesn't matter how many finish out of the money, it makes no difference because there can only ever be one winner.

The reluctance to tilt at windmills in good races is a function of handicapping rather than lack of interest in prize money.
 
krizon said:
All they need is the software to kick it off with and then everything's in-house. I can see other courses thinking it's a damn good idea, too. Will buying the Tote be the undoing of Done?
Click to expand...

They don't need software at all. I still remember the pink tote tickets when I first went racing. Perforated numbering although it took an age to give the tote prices and there was no screen showing the prices before the race. But it kinda worked.

I wouldn't like to be Done's corporate advisor if that wasn't in their risk profile!! The obvious risk, isn't it?
 
Cjboy, you're forgetting the interest of the betting public, though - there's very little interest in these short fields, where there's usually a very tightly-priced favourite (usually owned by God if it's in the UK), two middle-quality animals, and one no-hoper. That means there's very little betting turnover on the race, very little interest, yawn-yawn. A lot of people on this forum work in the betting industry and another number work in some sort of aspect of racing, like you (I assume). It's not an exciting spectacle for the average racegoer and it's of virtually no use in contributing to racing's income. If it was just about there being one winner per race, you might as well reduce it all to just three or four horses all the time.

Cantoris, I was repeating the words of the RP seller at Lingfield about needing software, so perhaps he doesn't know what he's talking about. I thought you'd need some sort of programme to link the individual mobile scanners to a central one to show how much money each seller was taking, for accounting purposes, in the way ticketing systems at many racecourses are now run. But you know how it all works, so presumably no, they don't do it that way.
 
MD Richard Thomas said: "We wouldn't preclude Tote pools being available because our system will accommodate Tote Direct, but it isn't an essential.

"I don't think we'll alienate too many racegoers by not having pool bets. I'm sure those people who bet with the Tote did so because they had prime positions and it was simple to bet with them."

In other words "I don't understand punters, and I can't be bothered educating myself".

Worthy of the Arse Cup thread.
 
krizon said:
Cantoris, I was repeating the words of the RP seller at Lingfield about needing software, so perhaps he doesn't know what he's talking about. I thought you'd need some sort of programme to link the individual mobile scanners to a central one to show how much money each seller was taking, for accounting purposes, in the way ticketing systems at many racecourses are now run. But you know how it all works, so presumably no, they don't do it that way.
Click to expand...

In the old days, when the race was off, each teller would fill out a form of how many tickets they had sold for each horse. This went into a central area where they consolidated the info and then calculated the payout. Generally you had to wait 20 mins after the race to collect. It's not a system you would want to go back to, but it worked. It's a bit like mobile phones....how did we survive without them!!
 
I know - how did we manage at courses with plainly numbered badges on strings, which you took out of a box, not ran off a ticketing machine that every now and then develops wayward tendencies, either refusing to spit a single one out or spitting out five blanks for every printed version? Aaaaaiiieeeee...
 
Back
Top