Dispatches Ch4 This Evening

[Merlin the Magician]

GO HERE FOR A MORE IN DEPTH REPORT........................

It Really highlighted MUSLIM activity and their doctorines in this country, and it needs to be stopped after looking at this programme made undercover.

It brought it home to people who doubt some of these fanatical guys intentions, one being to overthrow a democracy like this government and take over themselves...

I think you'll need a ship to put them (muslim fanatics they have certainly got a stronghold here after watching this programme) all on to send them back from whence they came.....

A real eye opener if you never seen it... you missed a very good programme.....

 

[krizon]

I also missed a lot of misinformation, by the look of the article. One expects slightly better factual reporting (I'm beginning to sound like Brian now) than that.

First of all, there is no such thing as 'Saudi Arabian Islam', any more than there is 'French Christianity'. The Wahhabis are a sect of Islam, very fundamentalist and outdated as far as most Muslims are concerned, and they are tribally based only in Saudi Arabia. Wahhabis helped the house of Saud re-establish itself as the governing body of the country in the 1920s (when it was simply known as Arabia, or Arabia Felix to cultured travellers), by forming part of the attack on the capital, Riyadh, and killing the governor, Rashid. They assisted in installing the first Saud into power, and have remained a sour, depressing influence ever since, thanks to this link to the ruling royal family (and from whence the name, Saudi Arabia).

The Saudi government, which comprises mostly members of the royal family, but by no means solely such, is often, in fact, under attack from within nowadays as it seeks to liberate its own women from the yolk of previous fundamentalism. The Wahhabis are behind much of this, as are radicalised Shi'ites (the ruling dynasty is Sunni) who for a long time have been - as they were in Iraq - marginalised by Sunni Saudis. However, as the Wahhabis are an extreme form of Sunni belief, there is no collusion with the Shi'ites, who they consider damned to hell for their difference in some aspects of Islam. (Google's full of this, so I'm not bothering to go into it all here.)

It's wrong to believe that Saudi Arabia promotes any form of radical, militant Islam. The country continues to apply Shari'ah law, as does any Muslim country that isn't secular (such as Egypt and Iraq), and to uphold all the basics of Islamic belief. It doesn't want fundamentalism to take hold in its own country, let alone anywhere else.

If anyone can be bothered to search for Arab News, the daily English Saudi paper, they'll find a fascinating insight into how the country is being run, and how many changes, especially in the emancipation of its women, are taking place. I'm sure that the Wahhabis feel threatened by such progress - they were anti-television until King Abdullah al Saud showed a religious Islamic film. they were anti-photography because women's likenesses would be captured and shown to any man; they were anti-motor car because they could only envisage people coupling on the back seats, and they were anti-aircraft because people could leave the country and do wicked, disgusting things abroad. Their mindset is pretty much that everyone is full of wickedness, and progress only makes it worse.

Be under no illusion that this documentary, based on what the article describes, represents what Saudi Arabia wants for itself or its place in the world. It's one of the most vehemently pro-Western countries in the Arab world, with thousands of its men (and women) having enjoyed Western university education. And there's no way that radicalism is 'taught in universities' since only straightforward Islam is practised in them. However, the Wahhabis may well be running small, private madrassas (religious schools) like those being run in Pakistan, which are fuelling violently anti-Western attitudes. I suspect it is visiting mullahs from those small schools who have been invited by British mosques to rant at the faithful.

Merlin, as a large percentage of those attending British mosques will be British citizens, you can't 'send' them anywhere. You can monitor what is said, ban entry to foreigners who've brought in their vitriol, and you can eventually prosecute British citizens under the variety of sparkling new acts regarding promoting terrorism, and incitement to religious and racial hatred. What you can't do, and you really ought to know this by now as it's been said about 5,000 times, is deport British citizens, regardless of their origins, as this is their home as much as it is yours or mine.

There's a brilliant postscript to this: in tonight's Arab News online, I've noted that Saudi Arabia has now got its first SAUDI FEMALE commercial airline pilot. Capt. Hanadi Zakariya Hindi has her wings, courtesy of assistance and encouragement from one of the royals, Prince Alwaleed. So, so much for the Saudis trying to hold their women back. I'm sure the Wahhabi mullahs will have tried anything to stop this, but thank goodness, many Saudi women - with the right help - can do anything they want. Sometimes a bit of perspective on the anti-Muslim hysteria we seem to be enamoured of at the moment is much needed.

 

[clivex]

It's wrong to believe that Saudi Arabia promotes any form of radical, militant Islam

Not offically, but come on now...

There's a brilliant postscript to this: in tonight's Arab News online, I've noted that Saudi Arabia has now got its first SAUDI FEMALE commercial airline pilot. Capt. Hanadi Zakariya Hindi has her wings, courtesy of assistance and encouragement from one of the royals, Prince Alwaleed. So, so much for the Saudis trying to hold their women back

You are joking arent you? They have abloody long way to go before they convince the rest of us that theres is not the most mysoginistic society in the world today

There are no doubt tensions between the Wahhabis and the reformers in that society. The ruling elite are (expediently) pro western in some ways, but there is little doubt that this evil strand of Islam does have a huge influence in saudi society.

The documentary was excellent. It did well to put across the moderate muslim point of view (often overlooked). I thought some of the denials by some of the mosques were little short of hilarious though

One final point

The country continues to apply Shari'ah law, as does any Muslim country that isn't secular (such as Egypt and Iraq), and to uphold all the basics of Islamic belief.

I think the civilised world would certainly say that Sharia law applied in its most unbending way is definately " fundamentalist" and "extreme". Personally i find many aspects of Sharia law repungant. Not every muslim country does apply the worst aspects of course

 

[krizon]

A religious law is a religious law, whether YOU consider it fundamentalist, extreme, idiotic, outdated, or not. Not so long ago, it was still military law in this country to shoot deserters, and single women didn't have the vote until the early 1930s - well within the living memory of much of this country's society. Women racehorse trainers were refused permits under their own names as late as the 1960s - denying, on the grounds of gender alone, a right which all men took for granted about any work they wished to undertake. Women in this country and the rest of the Christian world have been kept out of jobs purely on the grounds of them 'being unsuitable for a woman' until, thank God, the hands of our very own mysoginists were forced by the Equal Rights acts. Otherwise, I know damn fine that we'd still be banging our heads against a brick wall in terms of becoming fire fighters, police, train and bus drivers, and definitely airline captains. Just as Saudi is going through social change, so did this country - and under duress and complaint, too - so don't be so high-and-mightily smug, clivex.

I'd say that a religious law which condemns women to bear as many children as her husband wishes to inseminate her with is also barbaric, as is the religious law which demands the circumcision of infants unable to make the choice about having their private parts mutilated, but I don't hear you ranting over those laws.

If you refuse to acquaint yourself better with the social progress being made in Saudi Arabia before you utter pontifications on the country, there's no point in my further response to another of your inevitable, poorly- informed hauntings.

 

[clivex]

A religious law is a religious law, whether YOU consider it fundamentalist, extreme, idiotic, outdated, or not.

so you think its ok if its imposed upon "non believers" then?

And the extremes such as stoning adulterers and executing gays and murdering those who renounce this so called religion are fine, because they are a "religous laws"? Because its a relisgous law, we are not entitled to state that we vbelive it to be barbaric? Thats that then is it?

I am sure that there is some "religous law" within remote tribes that allows for cannibalism too

Still, Hitler mised a trick there didnt it? Genocide should have been recalssified as a "religous law"? would have been just fine

Suadi is going thorugh social change? So when do you think the women there will have the same rights and freedoms as those in the civilised west then?

I bet it wont be in our lifetime.

And whats 70 odd years ago got to do with it. We are comparing now with now. Its irrelevant. And i would suggest that even then womens freedoms here amounted to a lot lot more tahn currently seen in Saudi

ill informed?

well lets see what amnesty has to say about this then

Women

Women in Saudi Arabia who walk unaccompanied, or are in the company of a man who is neither their husband nor a close relative, are at risk of arrest on suspicion of prostitution or other "moral" offences.

Nieves, a Filipina who was working as a maid in Riyadh in 1992, was invited by a married couple to celebrate the wife's birthday at a restaurant. She and a female friend decided to go. At the restaurant they were joined by a male friend of the couple. A group of mutawa'een (religious police) entered the restaurant, saw the group and arrested them. They suspected Nieves of being there for an introduction to the male friend of the couple. Nieves denied the accusation, but was deceived into signing a confession written in Arabic which she understood was a release order. That confession was the sole basis of her conviction and sentence - 25 days' imprisonment and 60 lashes which were carried out.

Women in Saudi Arabia, whether Saudi Arabian or foreign, emerge time and again as victims of discrimination and human rights violations because of the gender bias in law, social mores and traditions. While women have gained some ground in terms of economic rights, their civil and political rights are systematically violated.

Equal treatment for women and men is a fundamental principle of international human rights standards. Yet in Saudi Arabia discriminatory practices against women are not only prevalent, they are also in some cases required by law.

Strict segregation of the sexes, an integral part of Saudi Arabian society, has adverse and unequal effects on women, who are denied equal educational opportunities and may work only in certain vocations. Women's freedom of movement is severely restricted. They may not travel abroad unless they have the written authorization of a male relative, usually their father or husband, and may have to be accompanied. Inside Saudi Arabia, they are forbidden to drive, a ban made official in 1990 by a Fatwa (edict) issued by the Council of Senior 'Ulama (religious scholars).

Some laws are applied in a discriminatory fashion. The offence of khilwa (being alone with a male who is not an immediate relative), for example, is punishable for both men and women, but it appears to be more frequently enforced on women.

Women who breach the strict dress code for women also face arrest. Margaret Madill, a Canadian nurse working in Saudi Arabia in 1993, took a taxi home with a female friend after a shopping trip in Riyadh. Suddenly a mutawa' jumped into the taxi and forced the driver to go to the headquarters of al-Mutawa'een. When they arrived, the women were locked in the taxi in the extreme heat for up to six hours. They screamed for help and were then beaten. They were accused of indecent dress and public intoxication. They were then transferred to al-Malaz prison and held for two days, before being released without charge.

States are forbidden to criminalize the lawful exercise of rights enshrined in international human rights standards, such as the right to freedom of movement. In addition, laws should never discriminate against a particular group or be applied in a discriminatory manner.

The abuse of women's rights in Saudi Arabia is not simply the unfortunate consequence of overzealous security forces and religious police. It is the inevitable result of a state policy which gives women fewer rights than men, which means that women face discrimination in all walks of life, and which allows men with authority to exercise their power without any fear of being held to account for their actions.

 

[krizon]

I lived in the country for 20 years, I worked alongside dozens of Saudi men and women, I had a Saudi boss, I supervised 50 Saudi trainees, I socialized with Saudis and their families, and had a Shi'ite boyfriend for 4 years, Clivex. My Mother and many friends lived and worked in Bahrain, where they did likewise with the Bahraini nationals, and other friends worked/work in Kuwait, Oman, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Yemen, and Iran. I don't need Amnesty International to tell me that there are abuses of both men and women, and children, too, in all of those countries. Believe it or not, though, Saudi's Arab News has been at the forefront of confronting the exploitation of foreign workers, the abuse of women and children, and the WRONG INTERPRETATIONS of the holy Koran and its teachings.

The Saudi government is well aware of the many things which fundamentalist zealots like the mutawa (and yes, they usually DO come from the Wahhabi tribe) do in the name of Islam, and is working to stop it. However, there is no division of church and state (or mosque and state) as there is now in this country, so they're stuck with many of the cases ending up in courts, where the overzealous ones are taken to task. Some actually end up in jail themselves - when I was visiting an English male friend in jail in Dammam, one of those incarcerated was a mutawa, who'd been found brewing alcohol.

However, your initial post diverted away from Merlin's, which I was trying to put into a factual perspective, not launch into another example of Islamophobia, which is so very fashionable at present.

As for Amnesty Intl. - it picks out the most alarming cases from all countries, including this one. Why don't you pick up on their analyses of the appalling misappropriations of the law and lengthy imprisonments of innocent people in Britain? Or the abuse of illegal workers still tolerated by our society, as long as they pick our fruit, veg, cockles and mussels? Attacks by white thugs on Pakistani families? White boys smashing a black boy in the head with an axe? Racist stabbings? Mosque and temple daubing? Swastikas on Jewish graves? The BNP? Why do you have an incessant fascination with always criticising only Muslim countries? I'd say 'glass houses' and 'stones' come to mind, frankly.

 

[clivex]

Or the abuse of illegal workers still tolerated by our society, as long as they pick our fruit, veg, cockles and mussels? Attacks by white thugs on Pakistani families? White boys smashing a black boy in the head with an axe? Racist stabbings? Mosque and temple daubing? Swastikas on Jewish graves?

these are tolerated by our society? first i knew about it...

Thought these things were illegal

And thats the difference

in Saudi arabia, what I have talked about (womens rights and use of sharia law)is LEGAL at worst and institionilised at best

I ahve no doubt that the reformers are trying their best ...but the religious police still exist (what other country has such an oppresive instition?). Having said that i did read that they are often struggling to enforce their aims...so i suppose thats progress of sorts

Wahhabism is as i understand it the official state religion of Saudi arabia. its beliefs have been well covered and are well known. the spread of its creed is damaging to mainstream islam and dangerous to the rest of us

 

[krizon]

Clivex, no, sorry, whoever informed you about the Wahhabis is not right. The royal family, which is the government, are definitely not Wahhabi! They are Sunni Muslims, and that's why the Shi'ah faction doesn't like them. The Shi'ites don't like the Wahhabis even more, though, because they are the ball and chain on progress. Surprisingly, Saudi Shi'ah are really gung-ho for women's progress - a large number of the girls I had as trainee admin staff were from that faction, although it's fair that there were Sunnis who came from progressive families, too. But, as I said, it was a group of Wahhabi tribesmen who assisted the first Saud to the throne (well, a fancy chair, anyway!) in Arabia. Thus, there is a historical debt of gratitude owed them, but which they've traded on disgracefully ever since. The Saudis had them fairly well marginalised until around 1979, when Ayatollah Khomeini took power in Iran, and as a Shi'ite, heavily criticised the then Saudi (Sunni) king, Fahad, for his wayward ways (he dropped around $6 million on American gaming tables before becoming king) and tried to foment an internal coup in the kingdom. (On the grounds that he was a godless wastrel unfit to rule a country containing the holy cities of Mecca/Makkah, and Medina.) The Wahhabi loved this - even though they detest the Shi'ah - since they could ride the anti-bandwagon of criticism and point out all the ills (i.e. progress) which were occurring under the new king. They've become further and further apoplectic as Fahad has given way to Abdullah, a real desert king, who is measured, wise, wily, and determined to push through reforms, even if they enrage the 'purists'.

But there's altogether a wrongness being put about re women's rights. Women are guaranteed specific inheritance and divorce rights by law. More and more fake 'laws' handed down by reactionary mullahs are now being challenged, re a woman's right to work even if it requires her to mix with men (women have always been allowed to work - but not alongside men); their right to drive; their right to travel alone, etc. The rule about not travelling alone goes back to the days when women were prey to raiding tribes. That's the same old reason for them walking behind their man - he is supposed to be up front, protecting her with his sword or dagger, just as our custom used to be that a woman didn't walk to the right of a man, since that's the side he drew his sword from. And the reason why women in Western cultures were ushered through doorways first was because the man would be last through, fighting back any foes, and didn't want a lot of shrieking women running over him! Of course, customs get a bit worn out as life changes, and some unscrupulous old Islamic farts have decided that NO rules can be changed. They find their power base dwindling as governments decree this or that social change, just as many churchmen have resisted the changes made today (such as the ordination of women vicars, etc., legalisation of abortion, gay rights, birth control). But most liberal Muslim governments challenge these now, on the basis that they are simply CUSTOMS and not rules, and customs can be evolved to meet life as it is today.

I don't agree with women not being able to divorce their husbands, but there is no rule to stop her going to her parents, or other family members. Most husbands will then usually grant the divorce rather than have to maintain a live-out wife (since by law he has to, as long as he's still married to her). The good news, progress-wise, is that Saudi, Bahrain, and I assume other Gulf states, now have women's refuges where ill-treated wives can shelter. That Arab, patriarchal societies are beginning to ACCEPT that they really do have the same social problems as anywhere else is a very positive step. And where once upon a time a drug user would've been bashed up by the Police to say who supplied the drugs, and that person would've been put to death, there are now rehabilitation clinics for the addicted. It's amazed me that they've even admitted to having any, frankly. Slowly, slowly, catchee monkey...

 

[Euronymous]

Interesting that Newsnight had a special this evening on the future of the Union but a thread about Muslims and their wily ways gets all the press on here.

Suni`s/shi-ite`s potato/potarto. Let`s call the whole thing off.

 

[krizon]

There's an answer to that, O Bored One - start it off yourself, why don't you? As far as I know, we can talk about anything we like on here. Clivex and I are discussing something which appears to be of interest to us, if no-one else. Go and give the forum the benefit of your coruscating insights, do.

 

[Euronymous]

No. Not only am i bored, i am rather pissed as well. It`s the snooker and alcohol i think.

 

[krizon]

Oh, not AGAIN! :lol: :lol: Not to mention you're spoiling for a squabble after the go-round on the Council Tax! Okay - here we go:

Euro: Biff!

Kriz: Boff!

Euro: Biff-biff-biff-boff-bash-kick-thump-thud! KERRRBASH!

Kriz: Okay, I give in. You do much better sound effects than I do!

 

[clivex]

Ok Krizon. Thats informative

I certainly do hope that progress is being made. There will continue to be an ongoing struggle between the reactionary forces and reformists.

I think there is a long long way to go yet

My other fear would be a backlash from the fundamentalists and worse still, the state falling into the hands of these people.

 

[krizon]

Your fear is nothing to that of the West's, clivex! Well, there is a huge military presence in the kingdom, BAe has several thousand employees engaged in training Saudis in weapons, avionics, as well as how-2-fly, etc., and of course the US has supplied fighter planes along with ours. Saudi troops were a shambolic lot when I left, though, so it'd be an airborne offensive on any mosques, camps, etc. The worst problem is Pakistan hosting radical religious schools, to which many Saudi youths have gone (through a side door). A backlash by fundies has been going on for decades, I'm afraid - when Aramco initiated an internal Saudi girls' training programme, a fake bomb was left in their school rooms (on camp in Dhahran, too) with a note indicating that if they didn't desist, the next one would be real. They didn't desist, but after the piety pissing contest with the Ayatollah, I'm sorry to say the company gave in by degrees. When my admin trainees left for whatever reason, they didn't recruit another to replace her. I went from more than 50 at startup to two when I left in 1992. Tragic, and cowardly.