I was watching racing the other day and....

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EC21

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Right, some of you will laugh at this, in fact I laughed at myself at the start when I started watching it. This is a Flat "tell" by the way, sorry Grass, Granger and co.

There are so many racing connected people on here. So, here is my first question before I go much further with the angle I have spotted.

This only involves meat and potato races, your average handicap etc.

In a race of 10 runners on average, how many jockeys in that race will have been told by the trainer not to try 100% that day? Do those type of conversations happen?..probably a naive question...but what are the general type of instructions by trainers to jockeys? Alternatively, does every trainer tell every jockey to win and how the best way to do it is? Or do they say, just take it easy today?

This is a serious question by the way.

The reason I ask, is, if I had never watched a horse race before, as a total novice, I would expect they all want to win. That is clearly ludicrous.

Please bear with me on this, I have a "tell" I think is interesting. I been watching, but I need info from an insider or insiders here, owner... trainer...jockey.. etc. Not asking much:D, but I never ever read what it really is like when a jockey takes his instructions from a trainer, particularly on a non trier. Do trainers say for instance...not today lad?..Slow out etc.

So, my question to those who are connected closely with the game is, how many horses in a 10 horse race are actuallly trying to win? or are just thinking of another day? That is trainer intent passed to the jockey.

I am looking for inside info in a way here. Are most races actually competitive as they look or are some jockeys actually asked to..take it easy today, the target is another day.... blah blah..do not win ffs..just get placed etc.

What I am looking for is ...out of 10..how many jockeys are actually all out for the win.....is it the 10?.....or probably 3? The other 7 maybe thinking of another day?

I do have an angle by the way,,I just need more info from what actually jockeys are told before a race.

These are day to day races by the way, meat and potato jobs. The main thing I am after here is the trainer to jockey message given. Are jockeys asked not to win? just get placed, not get placed?

Seems a novicey question I know, but I have never been involved in this type of trainer to jockey chat, but it is important in the "tell" I think I have spotted.

It is alright saying..well xxxxxxxxxx was obviously not trying today, but how do you actually know that unless you are riding the horse? These are serious questions by the way. They read as naive from someone like me who is a numbers man. In fact, I could fit into the ctaegory of every horse is trying and I just have to spot the best one on the day, coz they are all trying that day.

The main thing I want to know from the inside is, are jockeys actually told, or hinted, that it wouldn't be the end of the earth if they didn't win that day..actually told that.

I'm not trying to incriminate anyone at all here, I just want to know what is actually said to jockeys in general about how much they should try on a particular day
 
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I must have edited that a few times:D. It is early morning, but the points I ask are genuine and I hope to learn something for a "tell" I think I have spotted. And some of you will think..is he wired up right when I tell you the "tell". But I do need info first as asked for.

When I tell you the "tell", some of you will laugh a lot..but then think..that makes sense.
 
When a horse is entered for a flat race, they know what circumstances they are likely to face,but the draw often has a major impact,and badly drawn horses are often given an 'easy'.
Live case in point; ZIP (3.35S) has the form to win this, but watch how he goes from his coffin box draw?
Interesting subject,though.
 
It is interesting Reet, because I am a complete outsider in this game, just a numbers man. I need input from insiders. I think you are like me Reet, not sure, but you are an "outsider" like me We look at form, whereas others here have closer knowledge of what happens re instructions to a jockey before a race.

If I find out that xx number of jockeys have been told to really try or not be to bothered in a race, then the "tell" is just something anyone would do if they were in that position as a jockey.

This isn't something really groundbreaking, it is more a study of what a jockey does or does not do before a race if he is told a certain instruction.

I have wondered for instance, is every jockey in a meat and potatoes flat race told he really has a great chance or is he/she told, well maybe..or..absolutely not today, don't worry.

You will laugh when I tell you the "tell". I just need some inside input to see if what i have spotted makes sense or is just a load of nonsense based on not knowing the "inside" bit of racing on my behalf.

The worst answer I get will be..every jockey is told by the trainer they will win on every horse in every race. That won't be true. I feel daft asking these questions, but am asking them anyway.

It is a bit like being at school in lets say Maths, and teacher says..you all understand that?..and no f**ker ever puts their hand up to say..oooh no sir I didn't get that.

I think we all have that thing with racing..someone says..oh that wasn't trying..and you think to yourself..did the trainer actually tell the jockey..do not win on this today.

No one ever asks...does that really happen?..they just assume it's all bent rather than actually ask..does that go on?

The first person who asks that....if brave enough....looks like a jackass for asking because they don't want to be the first person to ask, even though half the class doesn't really get it.

I'll just make it clear..I know stuff goes on in racing, I been watching this game since the 70s. So I could think, listening to people, that every race is worked out beforehand, or it is random, or every jockey is told, try your best, or, don't bother today etc.

I'll ask the most obvious question..are some jockeys asked to not to worry to much if they lose?...and others told to really really try to win?
 
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It’s very much harder to “stop” a horse these days due to so much video coverage from every angle which will be watched by stewards as will betting patterns. If you are very experienced watching a jockeys body language, there are a few who will position their horses poorly or make too much use of them or simply ensure they make a mistake at a fence. But they are fairly hard to spot. If you are doing it Day in, day out then you will probably get a better idea. My ex does precisely this and will track any horses he thinks isn’t “off”.

If you keep keep an eye on winning handicap marks then often a trainer will use the “wrong ground or trip” to get a horse down a few pounds back to a winnable mark. If the horse has managed to win off 76 (Flat rating) but has shot up to 85 by running well without winning, then it’s entirely possible the trainer will think to do that. But as I said in the first part, it’s not as easy as it was. You can leave a horse short of work too or put up an inexperienced jockey. In any case however, when it does come out and win with the money down, you’re going to have to have the completely plausible reason why it’s suddenly won after a run of “disappointing” efforts!

Of course it goes on but trainers will be unlikely to be having those conversations in the paddock before legging up.
 
As has often been said on the forum, once a horse attains its new handicap mark after winning a race, connections will spend the next few months getting that mark reduced. Because there is no way the horse is competitive off the new mark, unless it is a massive improver.
 
As Jinny says, there are many ways to disadvantage a horse without 'hooking them up' and any trainer worth his salt will know most of them.
However, it has to be said that plenty are run straight, and the majorityof 'not offs' are due to fertile imaginations compensating for punter ineptitude,imo anyway.
 
Conversely a steward questioned what the trainer was giving to a horse in the paddock “just a sugar lump. Here, have one yourself” he said giving one to the steward and having one himself.

Jocking up he said to his jockey. “Let him go round the last bend, if anything passes you it’ll be me or the steward”.
 
reet hard said:
When a horse is entered for a flat race, they know what circumstances they are likely to face,but the draw often has a major impact,and badly drawn horses are often given an 'easy'.
Live case in point; ZIP (3.35S) has the form to win this, but watch how he goes from his coffin box draw?
Interesting subject,though.
Click to expand...
Having been bet from 16/1 Zip wins under a ballsy ride (much to my chagrin).:rolleyes:
 
THere's no doubt Zip was helped by the return of the visor and the steady early pace, but note his previous race, and how he was ridden - then decide whether he was out to win then.
Not sour grapes mind, but illustrates how some are placed to win,which went over my head completely.
 
Back in the day before mobile phones, when I was young and stupid, I used to study hard the body language of the owners when they spoke to the trainer just before the 'leg up.'
The ones that ran fastest to the ring when the horses had left the paddock were the ones to follow. I don't bet remotely enough money to keep a P&L but still reckon that this lead to profit.

I know another chap who positions himself carefully at the edge of the parade ring before the start of a bumper, particularly if its a moderate event with many unraced horses. As the stable lad/lass leads one by he'll surprise them. YES or NO? They are often shocked enough to say 'not a hope in hell' or 'I wouldn't put you off him.' He swears by it.

Finally, back in the day I owned a leg in a chaser trained by WPM. He was running at Wexford one Friday evening and after the pre-race conflab I left the ring to watch the race from the stands. I was approached by one of those intense looking men of the soil and he said..'couldn't make out what Willie was saying - is he winning?' Shocked that he was getting this intimate without even dinner and a movie, I replied that he said he was a cast iron certainty, as if there was some universe in which the great man would give a straight up indication like that.

Happily the horse won at 2/1 and I got a smiling 'thumbs up' from yer man when I collected the crystal.
 
Back in the days when I led up horses, I regularly got asked if the horse was off as I walked it around the paddock. I never replied but I’m sure it still goes on.

And pointing, where betting is more limited in the amount that you can get on, following the money is a pretty good way of knowing what will definitely win. If the Welsh are there and have their guys walking around, the bookies slash the odds very rapidly as they’ve been caught out too many times before. And there’s a trainer from Cheshire who’s pretty shrewd who has a guy to put bets on who we all watch to see where and when.
 
I recall one day at Ayr we had been handed our arse all day and we're dejectedly watching the parade in the last when one of the jockeys, seeing our sad faces, piped up by jerking his thumb at the horse behind him saying "it's his you want to be on here lads".

Excitedly we checked the form and established that it had finished 5th the day before so we discounted it.

It duly dotted up at 9/2.

Then did the same thing a couple of years later at Hamilton.

The horse in question was Linda perratts celebration cake.
 
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Arecibo 1.30 Kempton today was a classic case of “not off” He looked to be carrying condition but despite having hold up jock, Spencer on board, he was rushed into the lead and made plenty of use with until he blew up. He will improve next time and comes from an exceptionally shrewd yard.
 
One day at Cork Eddie Harty invited Baldeagle and me to join him in the parade ring as the owner was absent.
Seamie Heffernan was riding Roy's Delight ,a 16/1 shot that had been priced up 35/1 by Cashman bookmakers that morning.
Joining jockey and trainer, I put on my best West Brit accent and said " I say Harty; there is money for our horse and it is not ours; Explain yourself my good man !"
Seamie looked at us lads with a small "l" while poor EPH shook his head in reply "Well, it isn't my money either " before introducing us intruders.
He suddenly changed tone, telling his jockey the horse was in top order and held up for one late clear pounce would outrun his odds.
He duly won , delighting one and all.
EPH never forgave me though.
 
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