Irish history question

M

Marb

Journeyman
Joined
Mar 8, 2016
Messages
7,822
I am interested in Irish history and what part or role, (or lack of), the Irish state played in the Transatlantic and African slave trade.

I have read of articles on the internet 'debunking' the Irish slaves myth, e.g these articles challenge the notion that the treatment of the Irish was in any way comparible with the treatment of afro caribean peoples.

I don't question this bit of the argument and it seems the treatment of afro carribean peoples being enslaved by the British empire was far more perverse than the treatment of Irish people.

The specific bit I am interested in, as someone who is genetically half Irish, is should I blame my Irish ancestors or their government who then governed my ancestors for the British Colonial Slave Trade?

I would have thought the answer is probably no, but i am open to any other opinions.

I know the celts and romans did slavery but again, my specific question is about the Irish state in relation to the British trans atlantic slave trade.

I don't think naming 3 or 4 Irish people who worked on British slave transportation ships 400 years ago, (which is what I've read in one article), is really sufficient evidence of Irish participation in such historical events either.

But any views or even book recommendations on the subject are very much appreciated.
 
Last edited:
Apart for a 20 year period at the end of the 18th century, there wasn't a Dublin Parliament until 1916 or 1922. The Irish "government" was the London government.
 
The Irish State did not exist until 115 years after the British Parilament abolished the slave trade. ~3.5M, mainly African, souls had been enslaved under British commercial oversight in the preceding 150 years or so. Whilst Irish CATHOLIC and to a lesser extent, 'Free' churches had been supressed politically, culturally, socially and economically by the Anglican parliament it was not comaparable to the treatment of enslaved Africans. Clearly, as part of the British entity, there is no question that Irish personnel would have been involved in the slave trade at a personal/professional level, there was no Irish institutional or structural enablement of the infamy.

Unless you can trace your 4 x great Grandfather to an overseer at a sugar plantation in Jamaica, I'd go easy on your ancestors.
 
Last edited:
Marb -Oliver Cromwell and his like gave tens of thousands of Irish people an unwanted one way ticket to Barbados -later more were deported to Australia on spurious grounds.It was slavery whatsoever way you look at it.
 
Yes it's a very fair point Luke I am wary of getting in a confrontation with our African Carribean friends about who had it worse etc as it seems thats a race to the bottom but very good point that you mention and why wasn't any of what you mention on our English curriculum when I was at school in England, Luke?

I haven't forgotten reading Ned Kelly as a teenager. His father was deported to Australia aged 21 from Tipperary in Ireland for stealing two pigs..

Thanks for your replies to Hawk Wing and Al. Very helpful.
 
Last edited:
Krizon who was a long time contributor here was a big defender of the British Empire and its colonies -some of her pro Empire arguments were genuinely surprising to me.
 
Marb said:
Yes it's a very fair point Luke I am wary of getting in a confrontation with our African Carribean friends about who had it worse etc as it seems thats a race to the bottom but very good point that you mention and why wasn't any of what you mention on our English curriculum when I was at school in England, Luke?

I haven't forgotten reading Ned Kelly as a teenager. His father was deported to Australia aged 21 from Tipperary in Ireland for stealing two pigs..

Thanks for your replies to Hawk Wing and Al. Very helpful.
Click to expand...

There is no doubt that African slaves had it much worse.
 
LUKE said:
Krizon who was a long time contributor here was a big defender of the British Empire and its colonies -some of her pro Empire arguments were genuinely surprising to me.
Click to expand...

Possibly from personal experiences/ a generation thing - not wishing to put words/thoughts in her mouth as it were for one minute.

My parents were born in/at the end of one World War and lived through the second ( Dad served ) and they were very anti Europe. Not really difficult to see their point of view, they were there.
 
I’m pretty sure Jon (Krizon) grew up in a colonial country from what I remember? Trudi may be able to confirm this?
 
G-G said:
My parents were born in/at the end of one World War and lived through the second ( Dad served ) and they were very anti Europe. Not really difficult to see their point of view, they were there.
Click to expand...

My father served in the RAF in India and Pakistan and had nothing but positive things to say about the people he met/knew there.
 
jinnyj said:
I’m pretty sure Jon (Krizon) grew up in a colonial country from what I remember? Trudi may be able to confirm this?
Click to expand...
Kenya I think.

Btw...coincidentally, yesterday was the 100th anniversary of the ratification of the Anglo Irish treaty in the 2nd Dail (Parliament) in Dublin. It led eventually to partition of Ireland, a schism between the revolutionaries and a bloody civil war.

For our GB friends..the civil war led to two political parties, pro treaty Fine Gael (now led by Varadkar) and anti-treaty Fianna Fail ( Martin) which has endured as a dual party hegemony since. Sinn Fein is now disrupting this.

+ IRA theology insists that the as the 2nd Dail was the last legitimate one, they remained the true official army (Oglach na hEireann) of the Irish Republic. A crucial, if nuanced, justification of their subsequent physical force campaigns.
 
Last edited:
Desert Orchid said:
My father served in the RAF in India and Pakistan and had nothing but positive things to say about the people he met/knew there.
Click to expand...

My point was that they grew up in a period where almost of their formative lives they grew up post European war, economic depression and real poverty partly caused by that war, and then Hitler and WW2, and conflicts after 1945. My mum lost 2 uncles in WW1 , she didn't know them but the impact on her family was enormous, and a brother and brother in law in WW2; our eldest brother was in the Paras in the ME in the late 50s.
My mum looked after an elderly Polish couple, who stories of the war were just sheer horror from both forces either side of Poland.
No way were my parents in any shape or form racists - they were immigrants into England, when my Mum's family came from Wales there was a lot of anti feeling towards them, one of their neighbours told me that, and she was from Cumbria! They just had no faith in certain countries trying to be of one cause/outlook whatever you want to call it. One generations view of the world that they were entitled to have an opinion of as they were there.
 
Last edited:
That wasn't what I was trying to say. Just that people can have different views of people from different places based on their experience. I've no idea what my father thought of the Europeans. He never mentioned them and never set foot in continental Europe in his life.

Personally, my experience of meeting French people is that I can count on the one hand the ones I've really liked. The Spaniards I've met would be the opposite; I could probably count on one hand the ones I didn't take to.
 
I get all my Irish cultural education from family in Raheny/Clogherhead, fine racing men, and Intermission……yiz humpy cu*nts.
 
Desert Orchid said:
That wasn't what I was trying to say. Just that people can have different views of people from different places based on their experience. I've no idea what my father thought of the Europeans. He never mentioned them and never set foot in continental Europe in his life.

Personally, my experience of meeting French people is that I can count on the one hand the ones I've really liked. The Spaniards I've met would be the opposite; I could probably count on one hand the ones I didn't take to.
Click to expand...

Yes exactly. Different views based on different experiences. My father loathed the French. He was a very quiet man and didn't say much but that definitely was as a result of his experiences in the war.
 
an capall said:
Would it be impolite to ask you to elaborate what experiences led to his loathing, GG?
Click to expand...

Although he was called up and classed as A1 so he had to join as it were, he was then reclassified as C6 as he was particularly hard of hearing in one ear so he wasn't in a combat unit- thankfully for my Mum/oldest brother ( not married 2 years and brother baby as born November '39) although the worry was enough. Amongst other things he had to do was guard duty at certain locations. There were a number of high ranking French officers there- not sure if they were billeted there or...anyway, he thought they were so over the top arrogant, demanding and extremely rude... and obviously please bear in mind this may seem a throwaway statement tarring a whole nation with one brush, but there was a feeling at the time that the French had 'just given in' and it was not appreciated. ( Please anyone don't have a go - different times etc and he was entitled to his opinion).
On occasion Churchill was there also ( if the Germans had known a deaf guardsman....) and my Dad couldn't stand him either, that dates back to the Depression and the Marches and Churchill's attitude to them, but my Dad said he believed no one else could have done what he did for us as a country at the time. Churchill would walk the grounds at 4 in the morning looking like a man who had the weight of the World on his shoulders, which up until the time the Americans showed up, he did pretty much.

Dad didn't say much, as in wouldn't volunteer information, but once I asked him what was the worst thing he had to do; he said a young lieutenant had somehow got hold of a gun and shot himself the day before a court martial for desertion. Dad had to clean up.
You can't imagine can you?

My Dad was a Scot ( 2nd generation Irish ) married to a Welsh woman, living in England, and he wasn't really anti any one bless him. Home International football matches were fun in our house, Dad Scotland, Mum Wales, me England, youngest brother Northern Ireland ( 'cos of Best/McIlroy/Daly etc )
Dad.jpg
 
Back
Top