Irish Turf Club Flat marks

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davidjohnson

At the Start
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Jun 29, 2007
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Anyone any thoughts on this process that seems to have been carried out whether the majority of them have had their rating chopped by 4/5 lb. Don't follow Dundalk closely, so only noticed it at Wolverhampton for Monday's meeting when the majority of the Irish horses are looking well handicapped.

Caracal or example in the first, was beaten a length off 63 2 starts back and now runs off 55. Sounds Of Thunder, ran off 64 lto, now 60, Priors Gold dropped to 70 (has 6 lb penalty) having run well off 74. Ability N Delivery dropped 5 lb to 63.

Will be interesting to see how many of them come over from potentially lenient marks and whether the BHA will continue to let them run off their ITC marks, as it seems they have a theoretical advantage.
 
OK David. I've asked someone far more knowledagable on Irish flat handicap marks than me He says that you are right in believing that the lower end scale and now well in going to the UK. However he insists that for the last ten years the ratings at the higher end are out by around 5-7lbs. To make his point he says that he would back a UK 95 horse against an ITC 100 horse off levels every time.
 
Interesting Slim. Thanks. makes me laugh when you see how RPR/Timeform get criticised for their different marks and then 2 official bodies supposedly on the same scale are out of kilter.
 
It's a seriously interesting subject you have raised. He says that they are thinking of sending a few horses to the UK to get handicapped. The problem is with Noel O'Brien. A horse wins a maiden in Newmarket it gets 80. A horse wins a maiden in the Curragh it won't be far off 90. Take Cat Fire as an example. Took all season for her to come down the handicap. In the UK she would have been given a chance much sooner. A horse wins a handicap here and it get anilalated in the ratings but get hammered twice and you come down 1lb.
 
Irish horses are rated lower than they deserved if the scale were the same than in England,
but the difference is in Ireland they have less races and they are more competitive
 
The timing of it is a pain in the hole if you have a flat horse still in training as your plans have had to change significantly.
The point that is being missed here is the amount of horses that this "adjustment" has left outside the system (below 47) is huge. Massive knock on effect to the smaller yards when hundreds of these are kicked out at the same time.

There is a rumour circulating that the minimum rating for lower class handicaps will now be 45-60. This may help to alleviate the issue raised above.

My gut feeling is that the higher rated Irish horses have a tough ask against their UK rated counterparts but the lower grade ones seem to do alright. There were some stats produced by HRI recently which would have supported this view.
 
I said Noel O'Brien above which of course is wrong. Our inept flat handicapper is Gary O'Gorman. Horses rated 47 will not be given much incentive by the HRI to stay in training. The reason there are not more meetings at Dundalk is because they do not want to be seen to be enticing lower rated horses to stay in training. The problem is not at the top end or the low end. The problem is horses rated between 80 to 110 would be run over in handicaps in the UK. That's why British raiders have cleaned up over here the last few years.

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Key Breeze went over to Dundalk last week and won well. Actually think english horses going to ireland in Dundalk are quite well handicapped....
 
Also some Irish horses have previous form in the UK which is bound to be taken into some consideration surely ?
 
Interestingly, Noel O'Brien said last week that when the minimum rating was increased (I think two years ago), there were 300 horses knocked out of racing immediately. He said they got 2 complaints from owners. One irrate and the other asking if they could have one more run to try to get it above the minimum rating. He said most owners were happy to have closure. There was no reason to have their horse now. I was surprised to hear there were so few complaints.
 
Cantoris said:
Interestingly, Noel O'Brien said last week that when the minimum rating was increased (I think two years ago), there were 300 horses knocked out of racing immediately. He said they got 2 complaints from owners. One irrate and the other asking if they could have one more run to try to get it above the minimum rating. He said most owners were happy to have closure. There was no reason to have their horse now. I was surprised to hear there were so few complaints.
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Did he mention how many complaints they got from trainers though?
 
On The Bridle said:
Did he mention how many complaints they got from trainers though?
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That must have slipped his mind. In fairness, what trainer isn't going to complain if they lose a horse and have a box to fill? If we only listened to the grievances of trainers, then there would only ever be conditions hurdles and chases for Mr Mullins!!
 
Oceanway (Dundalk 8.50) rated 96 is 6/4. He takes on the 85 rated Flavia Tatiana (9/4) off of level weights. On the basis that Irish horses marks are inflated I surprised he's not odds on.
 
The only country that a horses rating can be increased by 35 lbs for winning 3 races for a combined distance of 4 lengths..... the same horse in uk would not get 10 lbs
 
An Saighduir on the other hand won at Dundalk last Friday and got a massive 2lb penalty. Gary O'Gorman's inconsistency is beyond equal.
 
The handicaps are getting so tight at Dundalk that I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't a multiple dead heat soon. The first and third are cases in point .... Practically impossible to solve..:cool:
 
On The Bridle said:
The handicaps are getting so tight at Dundalk that I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't a multiple dead heat soon. The first and third are cases in point .... Practically impossible to solve..:cool:
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If you're going attacking that Dundalk card tomorrow than you best give me a wake up call to make sure I'm up because you'll be short of funds after the last! Do you remember the race that Obligada finished 2nd in? That was an example of how hard Dundalk handicaps are.
 
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