Kauto Star And Denman On The Flat ?

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stodge

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Though I'm not really a fan of NH racing, I gather KAUTO STAR and DENMAN are quite decent performers and are due to contest a Conditions event in the middle of March the day before the Winter Derby.

I was musing at Lingfield yesterday how they would fare if they were to run on the Flat. KAUTO STAR would, I think, be a decent performer around a mile and a half. He seems to have a reasonable cruising speed and looks to handle decent ground (probably best just on the slow side). I wonder how he would fare in a race like the Ebor or the Bessborough at Royal Ascot.

As for DENMAN, he looks more like a stayer but he also looks to need softer ground so races like the Cesarewitch probably wouldn't be run on ground to suit. There's that marathon event at Pontefract over two miles five and a half furlongs - he'd do well in that.

Any thoughts ?
 
Originally posted by Headstrong@Feb 24 2008, 11:58 PM
Kauto Star has a lot of flat class in his pedigree, including Mill Reef as his gt-grand-sire on both sides:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/kauto+star

He has a lot of gears and would be pretty smart on the flat in staying races I reckon. Ven??
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And so does Denman - Mtoto, Busted, Crepello, Relko, Heathersett, Never Bend, Riverman, Presenting.
 
I thought it was rather a strange suggestion for a thread but I can see what you're getting at, Stodge.
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Of course, I don't expect either Nicholls run to ever be seen on the Flat BUT, and I think it's interesting to speculate, KAUTO STAR is bred to be a decent former.

I'm NOT talking about the King George but let's say Nicholls puts him in the Ebor - what weight would he get ? It's worth £100k which isn't anything to be sniffed at. In Ireland, you often see NH performers like BEEF OR SALMON running in races like the Irish Cesarewitch. I'm puzzled as to why it doesn't happen more often here - DETROIT STAR showed what was possible.
 
I would have loved to have seen Istabraq in the Ebor after winning his Champion Hurdles off his old flat mark.
 
Paul Nicholls is a jumps trainer and his whole operation is geared towards producing top class steeplechasers to win the championship races. He takes his profession too seriously to send his chasers on frivolous flat race paths.

Would you have expected Tom Dreaper to have run Arkle or Flyingbolt in a top flat handicap? Or Fred Wineter to have done the same with Pendil or Crisp?
 
Alfie Flitts made the jump from bumpers to listed race glory so it can be done.The same trainer also played a stormer with Turbo Linn who won a Group race.
Personally I would like to see Kicks For Free try flat racing but with the connections he has its not going to happen.
 
He takes his profession too seriously to send his chasers on frivolous flat race paths
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Of course he does and no one is suggesting otherwise but I wouldn't call the Ebor "frivolous" - it's a £100k race after all. The fact is that Philip Hobbs, David Pipe, Nicky Henderson and others have all been prepared to send NH runners on the Flat for lucrative prizes. I sometimes think NH fans have a deliberately blinkered approach.

I'm not saying Nicholls will or should merely speculating what the likes of KAUTO STAR could achieve in a Flat campaign. After all, as I said earlier, BEEF OR SALMON has done well on the Flat as have other top Irish NH performers.
 
Swinbank did the same with Turbo Linn and Collier Hill. None of these three had ever jumped a fence in public prior to being campaigned as flat horses. Collier Hill did have a short lived hurdle career but it didn't amount to much. Alfie Flits had more of a flat pedigree than a jumping one as did Collier Hill.

Why would you like to see Kicks For Free running on the flat when he is bred to become a decent steeplechaser?
 
Stodge, I take your point, but the trainers you mentioned did so with horses who were ex-flat types such as Detroit City. Also all three have a small clutch of flat runners every season whereas Nicholls does not.

I don't have a very high opinion of Michael Hourigan.

I don't think its a case of NH fans being precious or blinkered. I guess they want to see the best chasers doing what they do best. In any case, do you not think the best chasers deserve a summer off at grass, or do you want them to be run into the ground in summer, with possible negative effects on their prosepcts of achieving even higher status among the chasing ranks?
 
I always think Kicks For Free travels well in his races.Its completely theoretical because its just not going to happen-unless he is sold.
 
I can see why you have linked the form of Alfie Flits at Aintree with Kicks For Free and it is an interesting theory. However far higher rated hurdlers, adn more speedily bred ones had tried there hands in flat races and it is not always guaranteed that they will make it a successful transition in codes.

Also Alfie Flits best form on the flat came over 1.5 miles so it could be argued the horses finishing in front at Aintree simply did him for stamina.
 
Some really great trainers have had both flat and jumps horses so I don't think we should get into thinking that it is a bad thing to do both either with different horses, or with the same one.

I love both codes but if pressed would say NH was my fav. However I do love dual purpose horses the best of all.

Interesting I often have this conversation with trainers and recently the very horse to which we currently refer came up amongst near connections - and it was not dismissed out of hand that he might actually be worthy flat ground material. People close to Paul have advised him to take out a flat license, he just has not done it - YET. Never say never.

After all his much esteemed Head Lad, who rides Kauto everyday was Head Lad to David Nicholson who knew a thing or two about both codes without tarnishing either. Alan King has carried on that tradition.

I think Denman is too much of a galloper over 3 miles to be a serious flat horse, not enough gears for shorter races. But I would love, really love, to see Kauto on the flat in the Ascot Gold Cup. And funnily enough I have seen Mr Nicholls at that race recently so who knows maybe one day one of his will take part.
 
I don't think that Kauto Star would quite stay the Ascot Gold Cup distance, even if he was good enough, which seems most unlikely.

Denman would definitely need 2 miles plus.

I'd expect KS to be the better of the pair on the flat, he has more basic speed than Denman but neither of them possess pedigrees which suggest much flat ability.

Occasionally, a Cheltenham Gold Cup winner has a pedigree with some flatrace class on the dam's side - Prince Regent's dam was a full sister to champion sprinter Diomedes.
 
Kauto Star beat Exotic Dancer by 12.5 Lengths in the King George.
Exotic Dancer beat Fundamentalist by 99 Lengths in the 2007 Letheby & Christopher.
Fundamentalist lost to Jack the Giant by 6 Lengths at Leicester this season.
Jack the Giant beat Lindop by 14.5 lengths at Cheltenham in December.
We all know what Lindop did relative to Hawk Wing...
 
Nicky Henderson is one of the best NH trainers around. He doesn't 'keep a few flat horses' any more than Philip Hobbs does - he tries to buy horses which have shown ability on the flat but which have the size and scope to go hurdling and maybe chasing. They tend to be faster esp over hurdles than NH breds.

He campaigns those which are good enough in staying races over the summer, IF they are types which like summer ground, because he firmly believes it freshens them up to be run in a variety of races. He knows a bored horse is not a willing horse, and tries to give them all as much variety as possible - inc in gallops, going swimming etc. If they are summer ground horses, they have a good layoff in deep winter. He's not one of those trainers who keeps his horses on the go all the time.

Alan King on the other hand does keep a few flat horses, inc 2yr olds - he reckons it keeps the staff interested and on the ball to have a few runners over the summer but he won't run his jumpers on summer ground any more than NH or PN will: as they all put it, it crocks their knees.
 
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