Liverpool, Red Light Zone.

The Cardiffian

At the Start
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What are your thoughts, in regards LIVERPOOL CITY COUNCIL have agreed to set up a zone, in the city for prostitution. They will now write to the HOME SECRETARY for approval. ?????????.

regards,

TERRY.
 
Terry, I lived for a few years up by the old Cathedral in an area blighted with kerb crawlers. The number of times I was asked as I made my way home during the summer months if " looking for business" :rolleyes: It's a difficult one, but I suppose I would have to say I am in favour along the lines of what people do in their own time and in privacy is there business. If it takes it off of the streets...
 
I believe totty-zones have been set up in one or two American cities, and everyone surely knows it's been the case for a long time in Amsterdam and, if I'm not mistaken, some German cities. As the oldest profession, and one that will never cease, it's still buried in infantilism in the UK, both in terms of social acceptability and legally. It's way, way, way time that proper licensing of premises was granted, with all the inspections that, say, hotels, b&bs, pubs and care homes have to face and pass. In the Philippines, girls are registered and are given regular health check-ups in order to retain their licenses. That should be introduced here.

Taking the girls off the streets is not a matter of aesthetic reasons (c'mon, grafitti, dog shit and litter are less acceptable, surely?), but for their own wellbeing and the safety of both them and their clients. I can't think that a chap in need of a little 'company' wouldn't prefer that in the comfort of a safe, legal, warm room, with the prospect of a drink or two, than some uncomfortable wriggling around in his car, with the prospect of P.C. Plod shining a torch on his unmentionables?

It's only the infantile thinking that it isn't a 'nice' business that keeps women on the streets. When you think about it, it's so hypocritical having a license for 'entertainment' which is pole/lap-dancing, nothing but sexual titillation without the relief. Except for 'massage parlours', a ridiculous euphemism for knocking-shops. Put licensing and accountability into the frame, add safety for all and no silly wasting of police and court time.
 
Agree with Dave G to a certain extent, despite lviign close to Liverpool i'm not a frequent visitor after dark so to speak (clubs, bars etc.) though have been told were Paradise Street got it's name.
All in all i'm in favour of red light zones, whether prostitutions is legal or not surely the safety of the girls and clients is the most important thing?
 
Krizon,
ah! those were the days.Five DM Alley in Bielefeld in the early 60's :D

All part of Rest and Recuperation,before we graduated to QARANC,WREN,WAAF, and WRAC Totty,some of which were of dubious sexual orientation.

I can't find anything to disagree with in your post.
 
so its ok to pay for sexual favours?prostitution is something that should be seen as a career opportunity?
 
In Cardiff these women of the streets frequent an area called the MAGIC ROUNDABOUT(Tyndal st;) to ply their trade you get propositioned at all times and legs flashed too... you just need to drive/walk down there and you have got to beat them off ......

I was driving past there the other night and a copper pulled me over, he said" I was looking for business" I said "I was not" he asked my name I said" MERLIN THE MAGICIAN"!!! he had no choice but to say "oh thanks mate and move on"......... :lol: :lol: :lol:
************************************************************
Seriously now

P.S. Never paid yet for frivolities and definitely not my scene...............

PPS I remember here in the Bronx during the rugby world cup they were going to use a factory as a knocking shop,(red light area) there was a petition and media coverage that made sure it was not used................. :D
 
Not sure how true this is but was told by the manager at work yesterday that a while back the pub opposite my house was frequented by ladies of the night with a price tag on their shoes.
 
Which pub is it ? In code by all means or PM and I will tell you if I have ever heard of it being a knocking shop
 
Paying for sex is illegal?



UK Law

The UK legal system is often a version of the jokes about good news and bad news.

Prostitution - exchanging participation in sexual activities for money or other goods - has always been legal in the UK. It's actually arguably more acceptable to charge for your sexual skills than your cooking or brewing skills - you need a certificate or licence for the latter two!

However, many of the activities that prostitution often involve are illegal.

The legal situation in England and Wales has changed over time, and has just changed again. A government consultation on the laws, Paying the Price,is currently in progress and you have until November to respond.

(Scotland and Northern Ireland are very similar overall but slightly different in the details - contact ScotPEP or a project in Northern Ireland to find out more.)

Sometimes, the courts move ahead of Parliament. The 1967 Act that decriminalised some sexual acts between men specified they had to be 'in private', interpreted as between only two people, not involving anyone else or being seen by anyone else.

However in 2000, the European Court of Human Rights quashed the conviction of men who were enjoying consensual group sex - so though the law book took until 2004 to catch up, it was in fact legal.


The Basics - from May 2004

The introduction of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 means there have been several changes.

Age

It is now illegal to pay for otherwise legal sex with someone who is 16 or 17. Controlling someone under 18's prostitution is a more serious offence - no element of gain is necessary and the penalties are up to fourteen years in prison.

Streetwork

The laws on working on the street have become 'gender neutral'. Anyone, male or female, on the street (or on a balcony or in a window) can be found guilty of soliciting for the purpose of prostitution.

Streetwork is one of the few areas where clients of adult workers can get into trouble too - anyone kerb-crawling (approaching other people from or near a vehicle they've just got out of for the purpose of prostitution) is particularly at risk, not least as their vehicle can now be seized.

In fact it is illegal in general to persistently solicit anyone on the street for the purposes of prostitution, but this is much less fequently prosecuted, not least because if they are in fact prostitutes, they don't count for this law!

Working alone indoors, or for an agency or in a brothel

All remain legal. Provided the worker is at least 18, buying sex from them is also legal.

'Pimping', running an agency or brothel

All remain illegal.

But controlling another adult's prostitution is now only illegal if you gain from it (or know that someone else does). Looked at another way, gaining from someone else's prostitution is now legal: it's the control for gain that's illegal.

So sex workers' families should now be free of the risk of being charged with "living on the earnings of prostitution", however owners of escort agencies and brothels as well as 'pimps' will still be at risk.

In addition, it is specifically illegal to own or run a 'disorderly house' or brothel - anywhere more than one woman or man resorts to for non-marital sex. As this doesn't necessarily have to be at the same time, or involve sexual intercouse or, indeed, any payment, a very wide range of places are therefore 'brothels', including many hotels. (Remember that it's legal to be a sex worker at a brothel provided you don't assist in its management.)

The penalties for owning or running a brothel involving prostitution have been increased.


What gets prosecuted

In 1961, Frederick Shaw was controversially convicted of a conspiracy to corrupt public morals after publishing ads from prostitutes.

In 1971, a London-based 'alternative' newspaper, the International Times (IT), was convicted of the same offence. IT's crime was having run personal ads for gay men. The House of Lords ruled that while the acts may be legal, public encouragement of the acts is not. IT closed down as a result.

Today, there are several magazines which freely carry ads for male escorts, displaying their erections and their price.

It would be very difficult to find a jury today willing to convict for gay personal or escort ads. A similar situation exists with many of the other laws. The police have better things to do, and they know it.

The Crown Prosecution Service, responsible for deciding which cases to take to court, have published much of their advice to their staff. Of particular interest is the section on 'Offences Against Public Morals And Decency', including these thoughts:

Prostitution and related offences: Public Interest Considerations

At all times, you should bear in mind the following general objectives of the legislation involving prostitution, namely:

* To keep prostitutes off the street to prevent annoyance to members of the public;
* To prevent people leading or forcing others into prostitution;
* To penalise those who organise prostitutes and make a living from their earnings;
* Generally the more serious the incident the more likely that a prosecution will be required;
* The age of the prostitute and the position of those living off the earnings will clearly be relevant;
* When considering a child accused of prostitution, reference should be made to the policy document Safeguarding Children Involved in Prostitution elsewhere in this guidance, and the child should generally treated as a victim of abuse. The focus should be on those who exploit and coerce children. Only where there is a persistent and voluntary return to prostitution and where there is a genuine choice should a prosecution be considered.

... so people working for themselves, off the streets, are clearly not a priority for the CPS.

Indeed, indoor work is generally targeted less than street work, and single brothels are targeted less than chains, but patterns of law enforcement vary at different times and in different places.

* Find out what laws the police are currently enforcing in your area and try to work within those boundaries - some forces say they have 'zero tolerance' of brothels etc, while other forces will call around to check that everything is ok at brothels in their area.
* Keep your activities low-key to avoid attracting attention - the neighbours can't complain about things they don't know about.

A few years ago, a brothel operated in a flat in the same block as the home of one of our staff. It was several months before other residents caught on to what was happening, but once they did, it was quickly closed down.

Whatever your set-up, police involvement is more likely where there are under age or illegal immigrant workers, or where there is drug dealing, money laundering, violence or 'exotic' services such as bondage or SM, on the premises.
Coming Soon

Many aspects of the prostitution laws are being reviewed, including a public consultation, Paying the Price - check back here for our thoughts.

This is the best chance in fifty years to change things for the better - do make your voice heard! As part of this, if you are a sex worker, consider joining the activist group in the industry, the IUSW.
 
Originally posted by Ardross@Jan 27 2005, 04:46 PM
Which pub is it ? In code by all means or PM and I will tell you if I have ever heard of it being a knocking shop
The Pomona though don't want to be done for libel. I hope it's not like that now one of my mates was a barmaid there :lol:
 
Originally posted by Derek.Burgess@Jan 27 2005, 08:52 PM
Paying for sex is illegal?



Streetwork

The laws on working on the street have become 'gender neutral'. Anyone, male or female, on the street (or on a balcony or in a window) can be found guilty of soliciting for the purpose of prostitution.

Streetwork is one of the few areas where clients of adult workers can get into trouble too - anyone kerb-crawling (approaching other people from or near a vehicle they've just got out of for the purpose of prostitution) is particularly at risk, not least as their vehicle can now be seized.

In fact it is illegal in general to persistently solicit anyone on the street for the purposes of prostitution, but this is much less fequently prosecuted, not least because if they are in fact prostitutes, they don't count for this law!

any idea why its currently illegal?
 
News to me - I knew someone who worked there and he would not have been able not to tell a story like that .

A student was stabbed outside there a few years ago though :unsure:
 
Rival, it's not a question of whether it's 'right' or 'wrong' to pay for sexual acts, because the game has been around since BC. Many people take the stance that to use your body for monetary gain is okay, after all, if you know how to sing, you use your voice professionally and get paid, and so on. And look, it is only sex, after all. No-one's suggesting that people who kill for money (professional assassins) should be decriminalized. Sex is just an everyday occurrence - except that sometimes it isn't, being often not available (say via marriage) to many. So, if someone's quite happy to sell you their service, and you're solvent enough to pay, there's no harm done.

Problems arise through the activities being classed as illegal (as Derek has very carefully and knowledgeably spelled out). Clients and sex workers are put at huge risk through exploitation, legal action, the potential for blackmail, extortion, etc., and if you've read a newspaper recently, you'll see that men from many Eastern European countries are misleading young girls into coming to Britain on the pretext of hotel or similar work, and then forcing them into prostitution. Now that is where things become degrading. The girls are in a foreign country, probably without visas, so they're already illegal. Now, they find they're forced (often with brutality and threats of violence to their families back home) into performing sex with total strangers just for their keep. They can hardly complain about being forced into the business by brutes, because they're here illegally and will be deported, with threats of retribution ringing in their ears from their so-called 'employers'.

I could go on about the subject, but it's important to remember that 'professional sex services' should be about choice - no-one is forced to purchase, and no-one should be forced into providing sex. The way to stop the exploitation of women (and boys) who are made to, and addressing the issue of health and safety, is by taking an adult and long-overdue stance about decriminalizing the whole thing.
 
Hi Rival,
is paying for sex illegal?

Answer a resounding NO it is not illegal.


"It is not illegal to sell sex in Britain. However, the laws that exist make it almost impossible to do so legally, and criminalise those involved."
 
It is occurring to me more and more frequently just how much of an effect the Victorians had and continue to have on our country. I find it quite ridiculous that 105 (One Hundred And Five) Years on, we are still bound by their morals.

Their policies on mental health, poor/work houses, incarceration and female suffrage were wrong. They might just have been wrong about swearing (which was commonplace in all circles before them), prostitution (and sex in general) and the, no doubt, myriad of other things which are still prescribed in our society due to them.
 
Originally posted by Ardross@Jan 27 2005, 10:42 PM
News to me - I knew someone who worked there and he would not have been able not to tell a story like that .

A student was stabbed outside there a few years ago though :unsure:
Cheers Ardross. Being done up now and we have a Subway up the road - more eat out opportunities :D
 
Hi Derek , i know paying for sex is not illegal. I was asking why

"In fact it is illegal in general to persistently solicit anyone on the street for the purposes of prostitution,"

krizon , of course it is a question of 'right' or 'wrong' if you believe prostitution is detrimental to society , if you believe there are more harmful consequencies than possitive ones.
to you its only sex which suggests to me than you put no great importance on sex and the very real power it has.in my opinion sex is a means of expressing love and intimacy within an enduring relationship not a commodity.
from a practical point of view can you honestly see a safe , crime-free sex industry operating for the good of the public?
 
Rival, okay, this is just a debate and you and I will not disagree for the first time, will we? While I respect that you'd like things to be different, they just aren't, just as I don't like the idea of 67 y.o. women having babies for their gratification, and maybe you think it's fine! But I'm trying to make the case for a much wider sweep of an issue.

First, there are plenty of people for whom paying for sexual gratification is the ONLY way they're ever going to express certain desires. Perhaps you think sex is limited entirely to heterosexual, married, couples? You'll find rather a lot of people don't fit those categories. As an act, in a variety of combinations, it is nothing to do, per se, with 'loving relationships', although some bonds have formed very affectionately over the years between some 'providers' and their regular customers.

You like racing, don't you? You can enjoy your racing, I imagine, without having to buy a racehorse or become a jockey, right? Fine. Some people can enjoy sex WITHOUT having to get married, or in fact manage to REMAIN married because whatever outlets they crave are not satisfied within the marriage, however loving it may be. You seem to be promoting sex as the sole privilege of only the loved, the loveable, and the loving. But some people aren't that fortunate (maybe a few million, in fact) and in that category I include the disfigured, or the badly handicapped, who've never had people attracted to them; the emotionally damaged or limited, who do not WANT 'relationships'; those with ill, paralyzed or otherwise-crippled spouses who cannot provide the sexual dimension to otherwise happy partnerships, and so on and on. You need to look dispassionately outside the box of what YOU wish it to be, and see it for what it is for many people. In these and many other respects, the sex industry DOES operate for the good of this section of society. If you can promise a warm, kind, loving and satisfying partner for everyone, everywhere, then well done you!

I'm not implying that legalisation, licensing, and health checks will lead to NO crime within the sex industry. That's wishful thinking, and as unrealistic as thinking that CCTV cameras will stop people being stabbed to death in the streets. It will, though, take away the many, MANY current opportunities for vicious crime to thrive within it, and take it out of the furtive, shifty business it is in the UK.

You don't have to agree with this on a personal level, but I think on the practical level you've mentioned, it is the only way to go.
 
krizon , whats more important , the sexual gratification of the ill or the very means of existence? i trust we can agree on the answer.

evidence suggests that family breakdown , education failure and truancy , sexual abuse , domestic violence , homelessness , drug and alcohol abuse are the primary factors which contribute to someone becoming involved in prostitution.it is vital to combat the processes which draw vulnerable people into the trade.

rather than expending energies on decriminalising prostitution efforts would be better spent on prevention and exit strategies for the many trapped within the industry.
 
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