Mark Duggan Inquest

icebreaker

icebreaker

At the Start
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Not quite sure what to make of it !
While conscious of the need to watch our words on this subject, I can't fully figure out how ............
a man who didn't have a gun was "lawfully" killed by police.
Perhaps somebody could help me understand the apparent contradictions in the jury's verdict.
Especially as there was a definite alternative account of the incident given by independent witnesses to the official police version.

There does seem an inordinate amount of spinning by the establishment that Duggan was a dangerous criminal, but it also seems indisputable that Duggan was carrying nothing but a mobile phone at the time of the shooting and was in fact surrendering.
 
I agree with Gareth.

Being a firearms-bearing officer must be a very stressful job although I imagine only a certain 'type' of polis would apply to be one. The decision to take a life cannot be an easy one and I don't know if the shot/s was/were meant to disable rather than kill.

What is clear is that the victim was no saint as his supporters would have you believe and my sympathies would lie with the police in this particular instance.
 
Im not sure its "spin" that he was more than connected. Sounds like a right nasty piece of work but I am a bit uneasy about certain aspects of this
 
Desert Orchid said:
What is clear is that the victim was no saint
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Even accepting this as fact ( rather than a police press statement masquerading as investigative journalism), why should it matter what he was?
Is it a justification for summary execution on the street ( as some in the community will see it as such)?
There is already a view held by some in the black community in Tottenham that the police force is a barely regulated outfit, imbued with systemic racism throughout its ranks. This strange inquest verdict doesn't help.
 
There is already a view held by some in the black community in Tottenham that the police force is a barely regulated outfit, imbued with systemic racism throughout its ranks
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There are probably a few views held about the "black community in tottenham" by many outside the police force too

A culture of guns and gangs doesn't exactly help does it?

The worst aspect of this is that for the many within that "community", the actions and lifestyles of too many leaves them alienated from the rest of the population. That kicks in in many areas.

As i said i feel uneasy about what happened but the response of rioting and frankly many of the comments made after the event , leaves many thinking fck them.
 
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But there is a culture of guns and gangs in some white communities too -- in areas of Liverpool, Manchester and elsewhere. The most violent gun-criminals of the past and present have been white.
The problem is if you are a black resident of Tottenham, you are seven times more likely to be subject to stop-n-search than a white resident. Clearly, as this incident has shown, you are also more likely to be shot dead by the police if they "think" you are carrying a weapon .............. if you are non-white.
Is it any wonder that some black people see the police as inherently racist.
 
clivex said:
Im not sure its "spin" that he was more than connected.
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But we have not been shown any evidence that he was a highly dangerous criminal ................ other than police "intelligence" and "suspicion" leaked to the press after the shooting.
The facts are that Duggan was fined £30 for possession of cannabis in 2000, and fined £250 for receiving stolen goods in 2007.
They were the only two charges and convictions on his file. He was never sent to prison, nor even had a community service order ever put against him.
 
Best I not share my views on him and his "supporters" as I would be following the Frog to the Talking Horses firing squad.

I would just like to say that my support is with the police 100%
 
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icebreaker said:
a man who didn't have a gun was "lawfully" killed by police.
Perhaps somebody could help me understand the apparent contradictions in the jury's verdict.
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It would appear to be the case that the jury decided that they believed the man who shot him when he said that he believed Duggan was about to shoot. He would therefore be entitled to shoot him in self defence.

They also decided that he threw the gun away when surrounded.

Moving into conjecture for a moment - you are an armed police officer. you have surrounded a visibly armed suspect. He starts to lift his gun hand.

Do you
a) wait to see if he's going to lob it over a fence or shoot you in the face with it
or
b) take him down in the only manner which will ensure your safety?
 
b, every time, he got exactly what he deserved

Fecked off with these people thinking they can do what they want & get a way with it
 
icebreaker said:
But there is a culture of guns and gangs in some white communities too -- in areas of Liverpool, Manchester and elsewhere. The most violent gun-criminals of the past and present have been white.
The problem is if you are a black resident of Tottenham, you are seven times more likely to be subject to stop-n-search than a white resident. Clearly, as this incident has shown, you are also more likely to be shot dead by the police if they "think" you are carrying a weapon .............. if you are non-white.
Is it any wonder that some black people see the police as inherently racist.
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Not having this

Have a look at the gang murder victims in london over the past few years. And the convictions

I would also say it is at least seven times more likely that a black youth in tottenham will be involved than a white or asian resident. Make that 70

the left wont like it but that is absolutely the way it is
 
Easy: you would choose "a"...

How could you be sure that this gentleman is up to no good? His basic human rights would be grossly violated if you attempted to harm him in any way just on the silly assumption that he is about to blow your head off?

Police have loads of time to make the correct decision in these circumstances so it's a no brainer.

The riots that followed was a deserved reaction from a "wronged innocent community" of law abiding citizens who proactively do their best to improve their own community every day....just listen to some of the heartfelt lyrics of their rappers

As evidenced with poor Mr Moat, police with guns make the situation worse. In fact, the police should not venture into these communities at all as they do nothing but harm.
 
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Aldaniti said:
b, every time, he got exactly what he deserved
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Disinformation is one of the most powerful weapons in the armoury of the police. It pains me that you have swallowed it. Wait for it, I guarantee you; the next thing you'll hear is how it is "only Anarchists" who are concerned about this.
(BTW, who exactly are "these people" that you are so fecked off with?)

Whats the Guardian?
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Funny you should mention the Guardian.
This morning's Guardian had the courage to state:

"Immediately after the shooting the police and the Independent Police Complaints Commission began to brief the media with inaccurate and misleading information that ensured that Duggan was demonised, even before his body had turned cold. The headlines declared him a gangster. However, during the inquest no evidence was offered in support of this claim. It was further alleged that he was a large-scale drugs dealer, but yet again not a shred of evidence was provided to substantiate these allegations. But that did not matter, the mud had been slung and it clearly stuck as it was designed to.

The IPCC has chosen not to explore the possibility that the gun was planted at the spot it was found, even though it was 7m from his body and two independent witness gave the IPCC statements – and later testified – that they had seen an officer remove a gun from the mini-cab some minutes after Duggan had been killed. "
 
icebreaker said:
Even accepting this as fact ( rather than a police press statement masquerading as investigative journalism), why should it matter what he was?
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Rightly or wrongly, it matters to public perception in assessing the actions of the police. It should not, of course, matter to the jury.

icebreaker said:
Is it a justification for summary execution on the street ( as some in the community will see it as such)?
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Was it summary execution? Put yourself in the police officers' shoes. You've been told you're chasing an armed and [according to his profile] extremely dangerous individual. You've been told he has a gun and there are allegations within his profile that he may have used a gun in the past and indeed killed more than one person. If, when you apprehend him, he appears to be carrying something that looks like a gun, are you going to give him the benefit of the doubt?

What I'd want to know is whether the police aim was to disable or kill.

icebreaker said:
There is already a view held by some in the black community in Tottenham that the police force is a barely regulated outfit, imbued with systemic racism throughout its ranks.
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Is there a different view of the police in any black community in England?

icebreaker said:
This strange inquest verdict doesn't help.
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I don't see that the jury had much option but to arrive at their verdict. I would also presume the jury was at least 50% black?
 
I think we can also assume that in the weeks, months or years to come, one of the big TV channels will air their own 'investigation' into the case. Some journalists are better at getting at the truth than dogs (or pigs?) trained to find truffles.
 
Gareth Flynn said:
The jury yesterday concluded that he didn't have the gun on him when he was fatally shot and that he had already thrown it.
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Even though two independent witnesses testified to the IPCC that they saw police officers remove the gun from the taxi some minutes after the fatal shooting.
Neither did the jury seem to consider the fact that there was no trace of Duggans DNA or any fingerprint of his on the gun.
 
clivex said:
Well seeing as we are getting Guardian pieces claiming that he was victimised, perhaps time to look at the alternative view. An article with more substance, whether you like it or not

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...olent-gangsters-thug-death-sparked-riots.html
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You should have masked the URL, then those of who guessed it would link to the Daily Fail would be right :D Spoiled the (lack of) surprise.

It's interesting to read this quote from a "senior Met detective" - "Duggan was a constant feature of briefings about the most dangerous gang members for months before his death.
There were regular intelligence reports of him having a gun, moving guns and the latest beefs he had with his rivals and supposed friends.
We were desperate to catch him red-handed and get him off the streets. "

Perhaps they were a little bit too desperate? After all, there's no history of the Met police being trigger happy or anything is there?
 
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Still worth a look though.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the killing, anyone claiming that he wasnt connected at the very least, is taking the **** frankly
 
clivex said:
Still worth a look though.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the killing, anyone claiming that he wasnt connected at the very least, is taking the **** frankly
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I'm not disputing that in the slightest. It still doesn't justify the shooting of what may very well have been an unarmed man. There are unexplained inconsistencies in the story of where the gun was found and when - you can hardly expect the family to simply accept this.
 
I still fail to see any evidence or proof in that Daily Mail article of him being what they allege him to have been.
A photograph of him in the company of two criminals?
Lots of "un-named police sources" quoting "intelligence" and "information, but no criminal charges or convictions?
 
True, but nearly every detective story on TV or in the cinemas is riddled with characters who have been suspected/arrested/charged-but-not-convicted/etc.

It's not as if the man was an ordinary joe who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, or a case of mistaken identity.

Chances are his lack of convictions is down to behind-the-scenes deals with the underworld and/or shark asrehole lawyers.
 
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