Mumbai

Harbinger

Harbinger

At the Start
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Mar 22, 2004
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80 killed after multiple groups of gunmen attacked various locations around the city. Still ongoing it seems.
 
Not quite the same, but big problems with the weather in Chennai too. A few of my colleagues work or have family out there and are pretty scared.
 
100 dead now. 1 confirmed dead is Australian. I believe an Australian girl was shot at in the leg, but did survive.

Also heard that anyone with a British or American passport in the Taj Hotel was being taken by the terrorists.

So scary, and very sad. Especially considering they reckon some of the terrorists were children too.
 
Brainwashed by an extremist arm of a religion to believe that non believers must die. Root causes will always be the problem

They will kill the hostages
 
Haven't really followed it Clive but it looks unusual from a distance. AQ are normally about maximising body count, and to the best of my recollection they've never been involved in a traditional 'Palestinian' type hostage taking scenario where they court the gaze of the worlds media for a protracted period. My gut feeling is that this is some kind of separate group.
 
There are 200 still held as hostages. This is surely AQ linked. All the hallmarks. I fear for them. Especially the women (who these worms despise anyway) and those who are from a race which a section of muslims believe should be eliminated

It is certainly islamic and the timing is surely not unconnected to Obamas inaugriation and the fact that AQ has been heavily hit in recent weeks
 
Also going to be rough for the Indian muslims, who genreally seem to steer clear of the extreme end. Although life isnt fair, a clear public statement of "not in my name" (which was not pushed hard enough here after 7/7) is required
 
Having visited Mumbai for the cricket a couple of years ago the most shocking part from my point of view is that gunmen targetted Leopolds. Terrorists are always going to hit key financial centres/hotels etc but Leopolds is essentially a down to earth backpackers type hang out for travellers in Colaba. Not sure that hitting that type of place does anyone any favours. It won`t put travellers off and appears more vindictive than tactical.
Having travelled extensively in India and Pakistan watching cricket I can`t say I am surprised about the the attacks as a whole.
Whilst the Western world has a degree of education and understanding (not agrrement I hasten to add) with aspects of the Muslim world the opposite is most certainly not true.
I won`t recall my experiences there for fear of being labelled racist but to say that it was an eye opener especially in certain parts of Pakistan would be an understatement.
 
clivex said:
This is surely AQ linked. All the hallmarks.
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On the contrary I don't think it is, but then we have to be careful about this phrse "AQ linked" or "AQ inspired" that the media is so fond of using. AQ barely exists remember, it's not a top down hierarchical command structure, and it's this that Americans in particular have had serious trouble coming to terms with. It's more of what you might call a central resource (even library if you like) for that reason its near on impossible to strike at its command and control as its something of a network of autonomous inter-related causes, but each with different local grievances. The network itself is something of a learning mechanism that assists, supports and encourages its members or associates to engage. This support can be spiritual, rhetorical, technical, or logistical. As such its a very powerful mechanism as its tantamount to laying out a spider web across the globe and local cells can flash up anywhere. At a stroke it removes the conventional western military doctrine of invading and garrisoning a territory in order to establish superiority.

Not surprisngly the Indians are blaming the Pakistanis and where as I have no insight on this, I am aware that this is normally code for something specific and unique to an organisation within that country, though not AQ as such.

I also note that they used fast boats to launch the attack. This is something I've long wondered about in terms of the UK. We've expended a lot of time and money on shoring up land based defences against a rapid attack, but it strikes me we've left two very obvious high profile levels of weakness that would involve water borne attacks open.

The other thing I note is a mistake that they might have made in 9/11 which this attack has merely sought to demonstrate to me could have been done. Had they palced 20 or so gunmen on the streets of DC in the immediate aftermath they could have taken out hundreds of people as well as some moderately important ones. As the State Department, Pentagon, White House and Capitol were evacuated thousands of workers spewed out on the street in a state of confusion, (many wearing ID cards round their necks). Now wear as any gun battle would have been quickly resolved in the Americans favour due to the high military presence in the areas concerned, the 15 minutes it would have taken would have provided ample opportunity to take down a couple of hundred, especially if they were firing from a mixture of street level close range, and prepared concealed positions. If they were really clever, they might even have been able to set up a controlled panic that ensured people who were fired on from one point, ran back into other escapees who were in turn funnelled into another killing zone.
 
It was clearly anti western and it would appear that some of the attackers were british born. This is AQ
 
Agree with the first part Clive. wouldn't be surprised by the second part but I thought as things stood we don't know yet? The third part is too ambigious though. What is AQ? It's increaisngly something of a brand that the disaffected attach to in order to promote their own grievances (which is a polite way of stating the obvious I suppose). It doesn't really exist as a top down command and control hiercarchy that sanctions activity, its more of a loose network that facilitates stuff through the buidling up of a network of autonomous cadres who are all capable of drawing on each other for support. In that respect its a classic cadre system where by even if you take one cell out, it can operate unaffected. Try and visualise it as honeycomb in terms of its structure rather than a top down tree diagram that gives out orders down a chain of command.

It's the principal reason we get these phrases like "AQ inspired" or "AQ linked". It's tenuous. It's not too far removed from saying that Pearl Harbour was inspired by the Royal Navy (which it was from a purely military perspective).

I realise it doesn't alter anything in terms of substance, but I think its quite important to understanding the nature of the threat and how its structured and operates. There is no one size fits all blanket that can be easily wrapped round the network. Anti Western is probably near as you could get in truth
 
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If I was the "real" AQ, then every time some nutter blew himself up and the western media reported it as "AQ linked" then I'd know I was doing a good job.
 
Yep.. I believe that to be true and I also believe it to be one of their primary objectives. The simple fact is, they want AQ (what ever that is?) to operate irrespective of AQ's existance so to speak. The more we reinforce this brand, then the more it will appeal and recruit. AQ have rarely claimed responsibility for anything remember. They usually acknowledge things months later through a smuggled video. This sets them apart from the traditional publicity seeking Palestinian courses who would routinely try and claim responsibility the moment a bomb went off anywhere. My God we've even had occasions where 2 or 3 groups were all claiming responsibility for the same attack in the name of getting a profile. I suspect this is at the root of AQ. In a lot cases they're facilitators who don't actually direct action but encourage loosely affiliated cadres to act autonomously. It is quite possible that 'the centre' (for that's what it translates into) have leant support to hundredds of separatist groups without any knowledge of how likely they are to succeed. They've basically handed the know how, and sat back and hoped a few succeed, and the first they know about 'a successful attack' it is when we do.
 
Would appear that according to Mumbai doctors a large proportion of the victims were tortured before death and this was particually severe with the jewish victims.
 
Did anyone else see this week the Dispatches report on this? Truely terrifying the mind set of these guys. It was a powerful piece, particularly as they had access to the telephone calls between the terrorists and their "bosses" back in Pakistan as the attacks were taking place...
 
I did Gal, and it was an excellent, if disturbing, documentary - reminicent of the Dispatches output of yesteryear, before they became consipracy theorists.

Clivex, you would do well to watch it, and consider whether the terrorists tortured anyone, and whether any torture perpetrated was particularly severe as regards Jewish hostages (as per your contention at the time).

Please note that I don't condone any of the terrorists actions, but feel that it might help facilitate your understanding of what went on that night, if you viewed the Dispatches documentary.
 
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Grasshopper said:
I did Gal, and it was an excellent, if disturbing, documentary - reminicent of the Dispatches output of yesteryear, before they became consipracy theorists.

Clivex, you would do well to watch it, and consider whether the terrorists tortured anyone, and whether any torture perpetrated was particularly severe as regards Jewish hostages (as per your contention at the time).

Please note that I don't condone any of the terrorists actions, but feel that it might help facilitate your understanding of what went on that night, if you viewed the Dispatches documentary.
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The cctv images of them trying to break down the doors of individual hotel rooms trying to find as many people to kill as possible just makes you feel such pity for those trapped in those rooms knowing their fate having heard what the terrorists had been doing in the neighbouring rooms etc.

But equally fascinating was the awe in which the terrorists reported back on the phones to their bosses regarding the luxury and facilities in the hotel...they were awe struck by it. Not that remarkable but in the context of what they were doing, their level of distraction was quite an eye opener to the probably lives of poverty they grew up in.
 
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