Soary Stars
At the Start
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2011
- Messages
- 648
Found this in the Telegraph's comments on RWC 2011 & as it seems well written, thought you'd maybe like to read it:
#
Are you complaining about the flag with yellow quadrants, a red cross and the red hand of Ulster (this is the only I have seen paraded at the World Cup)? That flag is the only flag of ULSTER.
The similar flag which has white quadrants is NOT the flag of Ulster, but rather the flag of NORTHERN IRELAND. These are not controversial or subjective statements, but rather statements of fact.
Ulster and Northern Ireland are NOT the same thing, and nobody of either Irish Nationalist or Northern Irish/British Unionist would make the mistake of confusing the two.
Ulster is a traditional goegraphical province of Ireland with nine counties.
Northern Ireland is a political construct which first came about in the 1920's. It only contains six of the nine counties of Ulster (that is Armagh, Antrim, Down, Derry/Londonderry, Fermanagh and Tyrone; the three counties of Ulster that are not in Northern Ireland being Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan).
Now, if you wish to be pedantic, the point one would make is that perhaps the flag shown alongside the tricolour of the Republic is the flag of Northern Ireland. There is a perfectly straightforward rationale which is being followed against this. That is, the players from Northern Ireland actually play their rugby representing the Ulster Branch of the IRFU (not a non-existant "Northern Ireland" branch of the IRFU).
However, if you wished to analyse the politics of it all there are a few differing conclusions one could make:
1) In fact, the tricolour of the Republic of Ireland was designed to be all inclusive (hence the green of the "Gaels" and the Orange of those of a protestant background), with white representing the peace in between. I grant that the Unionist population in Northern Ireland do not sympathise with this interpretation of the meaning of that flag, and that is their right, particularly as the flag has been usurped by nefarious elements.
2) The flag of Northern Ireland is similarly politically incendiary for those who are do not feel British on the island of Ireland, and particularly for those of us (myself included) who are from Northern Ireland but have no affinity with the United Kingdom. As an Ulsterman, I can tell you that the flag of Northern Ireland certainly does not represent me as it represents a political ideal. The flag of Ulster on the other hand represents merely a geographical area.
3) As the Irish rugby team represents all Irishmen (of Irish nationalist and British "nationalist" tendencies), it may be more appropriate to use only a politically neutral flag - the flag of the IRFU has often been used for this purpose in the past. It is plain green with a white shamrock based insignia in the middle.
4) If you need an apolitical way to refer to Ulster, perhaps merely a plain white flag with the red hand of Ulster in the middle.
5) If you want a (relatively) apolitical flag representing all of Ireland, perhaps the old flag of St. Patrick makes sense - it is similar to the Scottish Saltire, with a red diagonal cross on a white background.
Anyway - I am guessing from your comment that you are not Irish, and the polemic that you wish to raise is one that the rational, peace-loving, neighbourly people of Ireland, North and South, are trying to consign to history in Ireland.
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A reply:
Isn't that the point.
The team used to be led out by a non-political 4 Provinces flag. The IRFU have chosen to introduce Political emblems - but have choosen the wrong one to represent the North.
The correct counterpoint to the tricolour is the Northern Ireland flag.
The rational, peace-loving, neighbourly people of Ireland, North and South are more likely to consign their differences to history if both traditions are treated equally.
The IRFU is not doing this.
It should either parade the Tri-colour and Northern Ireland flags side by side or (preferably) revert to the 4 Provinces flag that everyone can unite behind.
-------------------------------------
Another two replies:
I'm born and bred in Belfast - but why should there be an Ulster flag? There's no Munster, Leinster or Connacht flag. Ideally, they should just fly an IRFU flag to save any petty politics. That said, having chewed my arm off and crawled over broken glass to play, I'd learn the words of the Soldier Song and sing them solo to wear the green.
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I can understand why Amhrán na bhFiann would not be to the tastes of my friends and neighbours who feel British in Northern Ireland, and as such would not seek to foist it upon them, BUT one has to admit, it is a great rousing tune, almost rivalling La Marseillaise.
How anyone can get themselves riled up by the dirge that is "Ireland's Call" however commendable the inclusive sentiment behind its composition, is beyond me. As a committed Irish republican (small "r" - none of your anti-social behaviour for me, not in my name) I would even much prefer we sang "the Sash" - musically it is way superior for getting one's dander up...
#
Are you complaining about the flag with yellow quadrants, a red cross and the red hand of Ulster (this is the only I have seen paraded at the World Cup)? That flag is the only flag of ULSTER.
The similar flag which has white quadrants is NOT the flag of Ulster, but rather the flag of NORTHERN IRELAND. These are not controversial or subjective statements, but rather statements of fact.
Ulster and Northern Ireland are NOT the same thing, and nobody of either Irish Nationalist or Northern Irish/British Unionist would make the mistake of confusing the two.
Ulster is a traditional goegraphical province of Ireland with nine counties.
Northern Ireland is a political construct which first came about in the 1920's. It only contains six of the nine counties of Ulster (that is Armagh, Antrim, Down, Derry/Londonderry, Fermanagh and Tyrone; the three counties of Ulster that are not in Northern Ireland being Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan).
Now, if you wish to be pedantic, the point one would make is that perhaps the flag shown alongside the tricolour of the Republic is the flag of Northern Ireland. There is a perfectly straightforward rationale which is being followed against this. That is, the players from Northern Ireland actually play their rugby representing the Ulster Branch of the IRFU (not a non-existant "Northern Ireland" branch of the IRFU).
However, if you wished to analyse the politics of it all there are a few differing conclusions one could make:
1) In fact, the tricolour of the Republic of Ireland was designed to be all inclusive (hence the green of the "Gaels" and the Orange of those of a protestant background), with white representing the peace in between. I grant that the Unionist population in Northern Ireland do not sympathise with this interpretation of the meaning of that flag, and that is their right, particularly as the flag has been usurped by nefarious elements.
2) The flag of Northern Ireland is similarly politically incendiary for those who are do not feel British on the island of Ireland, and particularly for those of us (myself included) who are from Northern Ireland but have no affinity with the United Kingdom. As an Ulsterman, I can tell you that the flag of Northern Ireland certainly does not represent me as it represents a political ideal. The flag of Ulster on the other hand represents merely a geographical area.
3) As the Irish rugby team represents all Irishmen (of Irish nationalist and British "nationalist" tendencies), it may be more appropriate to use only a politically neutral flag - the flag of the IRFU has often been used for this purpose in the past. It is plain green with a white shamrock based insignia in the middle.
4) If you need an apolitical way to refer to Ulster, perhaps merely a plain white flag with the red hand of Ulster in the middle.
5) If you want a (relatively) apolitical flag representing all of Ireland, perhaps the old flag of St. Patrick makes sense - it is similar to the Scottish Saltire, with a red diagonal cross on a white background.
Anyway - I am guessing from your comment that you are not Irish, and the polemic that you wish to raise is one that the rational, peace-loving, neighbourly people of Ireland, North and South, are trying to consign to history in Ireland.
-----------------------------------------------------
A reply:
Isn't that the point.
The team used to be led out by a non-political 4 Provinces flag. The IRFU have chosen to introduce Political emblems - but have choosen the wrong one to represent the North.
The correct counterpoint to the tricolour is the Northern Ireland flag.
The rational, peace-loving, neighbourly people of Ireland, North and South are more likely to consign their differences to history if both traditions are treated equally.
The IRFU is not doing this.
It should either parade the Tri-colour and Northern Ireland flags side by side or (preferably) revert to the 4 Provinces flag that everyone can unite behind.
-------------------------------------
Another two replies:
I'm born and bred in Belfast - but why should there be an Ulster flag? There's no Munster, Leinster or Connacht flag. Ideally, they should just fly an IRFU flag to save any petty politics. That said, having chewed my arm off and crawled over broken glass to play, I'd learn the words of the Soldier Song and sing them solo to wear the green.
------------------------
I can understand why Amhrán na bhFiann would not be to the tastes of my friends and neighbours who feel British in Northern Ireland, and as such would not seek to foist it upon them, BUT one has to admit, it is a great rousing tune, almost rivalling La Marseillaise.
How anyone can get themselves riled up by the dirge that is "Ireland's Call" however commendable the inclusive sentiment behind its composition, is beyond me. As a committed Irish republican (small "r" - none of your anti-social behaviour for me, not in my name) I would even much prefer we sang "the Sash" - musically it is way superior for getting one's dander up...
