Old footage

Desert Orchid

Desert Orchid

Senior Jockey
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Aug 2, 2005
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While I enjoyed watching the finishes of old Eclipses on the ML today, the one thing that struck me is what poor stylists the jockeys of that era were. They looked very amateurish, especially the rider of Time Charter (Mercer?). They made the riders of the 50s & 60s look very good.

Thinking back, weren't these jockeys supposed to be ultra-stylish? Did Pat Eddery start a new style of jockeyship at the time?

The one jockey from the old era whose style (imo) most closely resembles that of modern jockeys is, surprisingly enough, Willie Carson.

What do the other old fogies think?
 
The 1984 Eclipse wasn't Joe Mercer's finest hour. He found trouble early in the straight on Time Charter who should probably have won. However, I'd be reluctant to accept that he was anything other than an extremely stylish and effective jockey. Bear in mind that he was 49 at the time and coming to the end of his career. He was at his peak in the 1970s and his rides on Bustino in the 1975 King George and One In A Million in the 1979 One Thousand Guineas show him to best advantage.
 
Carson was a carpet beater..have a look at his ride on Troy from 3 out..that was typical as well...not pleasant to watch....never liked Eddery's bump along style tbh..looks really bad imo

No wonder Lester was so highly vaunted...he was streets ahead in everything
 
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EC1 said:
Carson was a carpet beater..have a look at his ride on Troy from 3 out..that was typical as well...not pleasant to watch....
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To be fair, Carson refined his style over the years and towards the end of his career he had a much more "sympathetic" way of riding, using the whip sparingly and usually as a last resort. Of all the jockeys I've seen, he was the one whose talents didn't diminish visibly with age. His career was only ended by injury and I don't recall anyone prior to that calling for his retirement and coming out with the usual "gone at the game" comments.
 
I largely agree with you Gus. I wasn't a fan of Carson until the second half of his career. Up until then he seemed more the 7-7 in a big handicap type of jockey. His association with Dick Hern was the making of him and he just got better and better. His years riding for Sheikh Hamdan were the pinnacle and, as you say, he was quite senior by then.

I know I've quoted it a few times on here but I still love the admission he made in his autobiography of being caught holding one back at Hamilton early on in the Scottish Summer Circuit. When asked what his instructions were he said, "To hold the horse up."

The stewards asked, "For how long?"

Realising he'd been caught, he decided to come clean: "Till Ayr next week!"
 
gus said:
To be fair, Carson refined his style over the years and towards the end of his career he had a much more "sympathetic" way of riding, using the whip sparingly and usually as a last resort. Of all the jockeys I've seen, he was the one whose talents didn't diminish visibly with age. His career was only ended by injury and I don't recall anyone prior to that calling for his retirement and coming out with the usual "gone at the game" comments.
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I recall him trying to win by the narrowest possible margin, and getting it horribly wrong on a few occasions, losing the Cheshire Oaks on the superbly-bred Bashayer and an infamous Lingfield maiden when the formbook comment read "always going well, hard held final 3f, headed post". That came on a horse called Kamari, and Willie must have looked over his right shoulder 20 times, only for the winner to sneak past on his inner. Amazingly, Willie defended both rides, claiming that Bashayer didn't stay (she was heavily eased in the last 50 yards), and that he wasn't aware of the danger at Lingfield due to being deaf in one ear. It's true that he lost remarkably little vigour for a man his age, but his application certainly slipped on occasion.
 
rorydelargy said:
I recall him trying to win by the narrowest possible margin, and getting it horribly wrong on a few occasions, losing the Cheshire Oaks on the superbly-bred Bashayer and an infamous Lingfield maiden when the formbook comment read "always going well, hard held final 3f, headed post". That came on a horse called Kamari, and Willie must have looked over his right shoulder 20 times, only for the winner to sneak past on his inner. Amazingly, Willie defended both rides, claiming that Bashayer didn't stay (she was heavily eased in the last 50 yards), and that he wasn't aware of the danger at Lingfield due to being deaf in one ear. It's true that he lost remarkably little vigour for a man his age, but his application certainly slipped on occasion.
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You've not mentioned the worst one, Rory. I was at York's May Meeting in 1984 and made John Dunlop's Cherry Hill my biggest bet of the day in the Glasgow Stakes at 9/2. He went off 4/1 third favourite in a field of seven. Carson was tremendously strong on him when he didn't look to be going all that well early in the straight but the official Form Book comment says it all: "lw: 5th st: sn hrd drvn: styd on to ld ins fnl f: eased cl home: ct fnl stride." They raced on the far side in those days and Carson came down the middle. He spent the final 150 yards looking over his left shoulder, oblivious to Chaumiere and Tony Ives closing on the other side and oblivious also to me and my mate screaming "look behind you" like frightened kids at a panto. He lost by a short head, the pair six lengths clear, and as I've pointed out on here before, he didn't even get a ban. He was fined £500 which was less than his winning percentage on Band in the following day's Yorkshire Cup when, predictably, I refused to back him out of spite.

So, he certainly wasn't perfect but he was a top jockey nevertheless.
 
gus said:
You've not mentioned the worst one, Rory. I was at York's May Meeting in 1984 and made John Dunlop's Cherry Hill my biggest bet of the day in the Glasgow Stakes at 9/2. He went off 4/1 third favourite in a field of seven. Carson was tremendously strong on him when he didn't look to be going all that well early in the straight but the official Form Book comment says it all: "lw: 5th st: sn hrd drvn: styd on to ld ins fnl f: eased cl home: ct fnl stride." They raced on the far side in those days and Carson came down the middle. He spent the final 150 yards looking over his left shoulder, oblivious to Chaumiere and Tony Ives closing on the other side and oblivious also to me and my mate screaming "look behind you" like frightened kids at a panto. He lost by a short head, the pair six lengths clear, and as I've pointed out on here before, he didn't even get a ban. He was fined £500 which was less than his winning percentage on Band in the following day's Yorkshire Cup when, predictably, I refused to back him out of spite.

So, he certainly wasn't perfect but he was a top jockey nevertheless.
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Chaumiere is a bit of a blast from the past - turned out to be a C&D specialist, winning 2 Magnet Cups for Robert Williams and owner Colin Booth. Happy days (unless you'd backed Cherry Hill in the Glasgow Stakes, and didn't want to be reminded of it!!).
 
Amazed anyone should pick out Mercer as amateurish looking. Frenchie Nicholson who 'trained' Murray, Cook, Eddery and Swinburn said the jockey you must copy is Mercer. He was known as the most correct. stylish jockey.
His riding of Le Moss in 5 of his 6 cup wins was a joy to behold. To be fair his Time Charter (think he was 50/51) ride was shocking and I'm sure hastened his retirement the next year. But even in his final year he rode some extraordinary finishes (Luqman at Sandown, Highland Chieftain in the Zetland).
A couple of years ago Stoute's head man talked about jockeys and finished with '....and Joe Mercer, well he was poetry in motion'.
 
Eleanora Duse said:
Amazed anyone should pick out Mercer as amateurish looking.
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The comment was based on that one piece of footage, though, and I was guessing at who might have been the jockey as I knew Mercer rode Time Charter more than once.

Having been a huge fan of Brigadier Gerard, I'm reluctant ever to have a pop at Mercer. I just thought there were a number of jockeys in that old footage whose style is quite different from what we're used to seeing nowadays. That view was actually reinforced later on Saturday afternoon when they showed Nashwan's Eclipse in which Carson's style looked like a modern-day jockey's.
 
Fair comment Desert Orchid and you should call it as you see it. Mercer rode Time Charter for the first time in the 1983 King George VI, which he won. Newnes who had been injured returned after that.Then Newnes was disqualified and Mercer should have ridden Time Charter in the Coronation Cup but was banned for 4 days after an infringement in France. Cauthen rode TC and won on her, but Mercer had the mount in the KG again (but was about 5th in a much stronger race) after his poor ride in the Eclipse, when he should have beaten Sadler's Wells.
If you see Mercer's riding style in the mid '50s he rode quite long so I think the major changes in riding were late '50s/early '60s. I think he was a very rhythmic driver of a horse (rarely using the stick unless totally necessary). Having seen both those styles I see today's style as very close to the late '60s/ '70s, but that's maybe because I come from a different era. The big difference seems to be that many flat jockeys today rarely use their heels (as Mercer did). They appear neater doing that but are they as effective? It may be that you see that neatness.
John Hanmer (a Raceform racereader and later BBC pundit) who was no fool, always felt Mercer was the best jockey and named some of his rides as being very special (gus mentioned one, of them Bustino's CC win, and also mentioned his riding of Highclere in the 1000G and his second on Homeric to Mill Reef in the CC).
Also agree Carson was almost unique in that he didn't deteriorate as many jockeys do. Riding good horses at West Ilsley helped him as when he first went there Hern was not impressed according to the Michael Tanner book.
 
Nijinsky got me interested in racing in the summer of 1970, just ahead of my 15th birthday. I'd been aware of him, via my older brothers, as a 2yo the previous year but I was still in the 'youzguyzaremugs' phase.

I think seeing him, following on not so longer my father's admiration for Arkle, made me realise there's more to this sport than betting.

I'm therefore much too young to know about the late 50s-early 60s era :)
 
We are not that far apart. I first went racing to Kempton in 1962. Like you there's more to racing than betting for me.
Cheers.
 
Eleanora Duse said:
Fair comment Desert Orchid and you should call it as you see it. Mercer rode Time Charter for the first time in the 1983 King George VI, which he won. Newnes who had been injured returned after that.Then Newnes was disqualified and Mercer should have ridden Time Charter in the Coronation Cup but was banned for 4 days after an infringement in France. Cauthen rode TC and won on her, but Mercer had the mount in the KG again (but was about 5th in a much stronger race) after his poor ride in the Eclipse, when he should have beaten Sadler's Wells.
If you see Mercer's riding style in the mid '50s he rode quite long so I think the major changes in riding were late '50s/early '60s. I think he was a very rhythmic driver of a horse (rarely using the stick unless totally necessary). Having seen both those styles I see today's style as very close to the late '60s/ '70s, but that's maybe because I come from a different era. The big difference seems to be that many flat jockeys today rarely use their heels (as Mercer did). They appear neater doing that but are they as effective? It may be that you see that neatness.
John Hanmer (a Raceform racereader and later BBC pundit) who was no fool, always felt Mercer was the best jockey and named some of his rides as being very special (gus mentioned one, of them Bustino's CC win, and also mentioned his riding of Highclere in the 1000G and his second on Homeric to Mill Reef in the CC).
Also agree Carson was almost unique in that he didn't deteriorate as many jockeys do. Riding good horses at West Ilsley helped him as when he first went there Hern was not impressed according to the Michael Tanner book.
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Time Charter was fourth to Teenoso - the latter given a ride of magical brilliance by Piggott .

Piggott did not deteriorate either - indeed Fabre offered him the job of stable jockey in 1986 having used him in preference to anyone else in 1985 .

On his return he clearly was not as strong after the accident from Mr Brooks but he was still a better jockey in 1985 than Carson ever was .
 
Ardross, you are right she was 4th and Piggott did give Teenoso a masterful ride (should have known that as I was there and backed Sun Princess to turn round the CC form, she was 5th). Teenoso was a better horse than given credit for.
Of course Piggott was definitely a better jockey than Carson and I don't think he did deteriorate.
But even Mercer was offered a stable jockey role at Dickinson's by Sangster in 1986 but declined it. It might not have been a bad idea to have had Mercer running the rule over all that expensive horsemeat instead of what happened (even if he didn't ride for the stable that much). Mercer was undoubtedly a good judge of an animal. I still don't fully understand what happened with Dickinson, but the training regime must have been wrong.

That footage is amazing and you wouldn't want to be blind with Goode commentating. In the 1983 he calls Salieri as making a run when he's rapidly retreating and in Chief Singer's year Habeebti suddenly metamorposes into Never So Bold. Cracking stuff.
 
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Jim McGrath is full of dreadful cliches - careering away ( a complete misuse of the verb ) ought to be enough to send him back to Botany bay .
 
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