Ratings, Steeplechasers

SteveM

SteveM

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No doubt the likes of Desert Orchid and Maurice have done the number crunching already. Thought I’d put this up so that we know where we are.

What a feast you lucky, lucky people.


OR RPR Portway Press

Master Minded 186 184
Denman 185 186
Kauto Star 180 185

Desert Orchid 185 189 187
Moscow Flyer 180 182

Incredibly close on ratings on the three from Nicholls yard. Now Master Minded is officially top-rated with Denman top-rated on RPRs.

Denman now matches Desert Orchid on ORs and is bettered only by Desert Orchid (in recent years) on RPRs.

Only these horses stand above, or with, these:

Portway Press:

Arkle 212
Flyingbolt 210
Easter Hero 190
Golden Miller 188
Mill House 187
Dunkirk 186
 
Mill House was 191.

I posted this on TRF earlier:

True, but he was rated as was Flyingbolt via the achievements of the horses they beat or were narrowly beaten by giving huge weight concessions to.- In the 60s the horse population was nothing like what it is today - both in sheer numbers and it`s make-up from a cosmopolitan point of view. Therefore i think on occasion it didn`t take a performance over 160 to place in a relatively weak Gold Cup renewal. Even in this era we have animals like Sir Rembrandt and Harbour Pilot placing in one Gold Cup who would have been absolutely nowhere (sic) yesterday. Stalbridge Colonist was (i think) rated 166 by Timeform - i suspect that is probably a stone too high.
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The only rating I've got for Mill House is the smoothed Portway Press rating of 187 on the universal scale. I believe his OR at the time was a little higher though.
 
They look about right to me.

Watching Denman win, it was uncannily like Mill House reborn, the same height, star on forehead, Mill House the heavier built of the pair and better conformed - but it looked to me like identical ability being displayed on the track.

Master Minded's performance would have taken all the plaudits in a normal year, he'll stick to 2 miles though, I expect. Maybe they'll go for the Champion Hurdle next year if it's another poor lineup.

Mill House's highest rating at the time was 191.
 
I may be a heretic and I've seen all the videos but I seriously cant believe all this Arkle bollocks! Rating 210 so he gives Denman, Dessie etc 2-3 stone and beats them.
Come off it.
Did he have 9 legs or something?
 
Originally posted by harry@Mar 15 2008, 03:10 PM
I may be a heretic and I've seen all the videos but I seriously cant believe all this Arkle bollocks! Rating 210 so he gives Denman, Dessie etc 2-3 stone and beats them.
Come off it.
Did he have 9 legs or something?
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It was a difference of kind rather than degree. Arkle was simply supernatural (I saw him in his third Gold Cup in 1966).

I understand your scepticism but he was able to destroy Mill House in two Gold Cups and Mill House was at least as good as Denman.

I don't know if Arkle could have given a stone plus to Denman, but if any horse could it was him.
 
I place Mill House and Denman as roughly equal, Arkle was about a stone superior to Mill House before the latter went into a decline (caused basically by back problems). Perhaps Arkle should be on something like 203, with Flyingbolt at, say, 5 lbs less.
 
Originally posted by Venusian@Mar 15 2008, 03:23 PM
I place Mill House and Denman as roughly equal, Arkle was about a stone superior to Mill House before the latter went into a decline (caused basically by back problems). Perhaps Arkle should be on something like 203, with Flyingbolt at, say, 5 lbs less.
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That's how I see it too. I couldn't really split Denman and Mill House and Denman could still perhaps be a bit better than we have seen (it was outstanding how he made all on the second circuit).

I also agree that Flyingbolt could have been rated a little too highly.

I simply don't know how good Arkle was. I do know they had to reframe the handicap scale to accomodate him. Maybe he was worth his 210+

I do know he was the best by a long way.
 
Possibly another golden age of 'chasing we're entering. To think Master Minded is only 5 - we've possibly got another 6 years of him beating everything out of sight.

Was Arkle really that good though or where the others just poor?
 
Arkle really was that good.

I've heard Peter O'Sullevan talking about him - he is old enough to have seen them all. I'd like to hear how he compares this generation to him, but he was adamant nothing else had come near him in the intervening years [certainly not Best Mate - he considered it an insult to Arkle to mention them in the same breath!].

One reason he is so revered is that carried huge weights to beat other horses, and carried them often, winning races which would bottom other horses. Then he'd go out and do it again, and again. He wasn't mollycoddled the way horses are these days
 
It's also possible to argue that he wasn't racing against horses from 3 nations - we have the French-breds these days - many of whom appear to be better than our own traditional British and Irish horses.

Also does size not come into it when we refer to carrying weight? Was Arkle not a big horse - 16.2 hands+, surely you'd expect a big horse to be able to carry and concede big weights when compared to something smaller?
 
There were plenty of French breds around in Arkle's day, it's not the recent phenomenon that so many seem to think.

Mandarin won the Gold Cup the year before Mill House's victory, and Fortina and Mont Tremblant were other post-war winners of the race, not forgetting the KG6 Chase winner Manicou.

Champion Hurdlers Sir Ken and Clair Soleil, and during the 60s top jumpers like King, Makaldar, and Le Vermontois were all French breds as were 8 of the 13 Triumph Hurdle winners from 1950 through 1962.

So there were lots of them about, but for about 25 years from the mid 60s the influx started to dry up, one big reason being that the growing prize money disparity between France and the UK/Ireland made them pretty well unaffordable.
 
The claim that Arkle was so good was that he could beat champions of his own generation by the furthest. The Stalbridge Colonist example is one that is often given. However, we do have a situation now where Denman would be good enough to give the full range of the handicap to Exotic Dancer or Turpin Green for instance.

Hopefully Denman will go for the Hennessey next year and hopefully have a top class horse somewhere on 10-5 or 10-6.

It is amazing to think that Arkle could still give 2 stone to them.
 
Originally posted by Garney@Mar 16 2008, 03:48 PM
The claim that Arkle was so good was that he could beat champions of his own generation by the furthest. The Stalbridge Colonist example is one that is often given. However, we do have a situation now where Denman would be good enough to give the full range of the handicap to Exotic Dancer or Turpin Green for instance.

Hopefully Denman will go for the Hennessey next year and hopefully have a top class horse somewhere on 10-5 or 10-6.

It is amazing to think that Arkle could still give 2 stone to them.
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If we are to believe the ratings Arkle could give Denman and Kauto Star 20lbs plus and a comfortable beating...laughable really.
 
On what I have read of Arkle, I think he was a better than 200 horse,

Denman, Kauto , Neptune, Moscow, Mater Minded, Well Chief and Azerty are all of them better than 180.

Denman is 185 now for me, and is on par with the best Kauto and a little bit better than the others, with the exception of Master Minded,
the later could turn out to be a 200 horse, I have him on 188P for QM win and is a 5yo.
 
master_minded_win510.jpg


Master Minded records a 19-length victory in the Queen Mother Champion Chase


According to this picture in the RP Master Minded ran so ferkin fast he went round Newbury as well.
 
:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Seriously though, we really can't compare the top horses then and now, ground management, distances, training methods, travelling, feed, riding styles ete etc etc having changed so much.

The raw truth is we shall never know
 
The rawer truth is that some peole don't want to know the truth because it doesn't fit in with what they believe.
 
I'm old enough to have seen Arkle on all his televised races, he was that good, absolutely awesome, us English wanted Mill House to do him :D but thats pie in the sky. I also remember Dunkirk having a go at him, a great 2 miler but it ruined him. :(
 
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