Religious Intimidation

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I was interested to hear on Radio 4 this afternoon a suggestion that christian Voice should be investigated for intimidation . First Jery springer , then intimidating that cancer charity from accepting the proceeds of a charity performance of Jerry Springer . Then we have the outrageous intimidation and violence that stopped Beshti in Birmingham .

What can be done ? Should it be an offence to intimidate others from carrying out a lawful activity on grounds of religion ?

What next ?women picketed outside family planning clinics - gays attacked on a night out - yet more religious attempts to stop freedom of expression ?
 
I'm not sure that you can legislate, but any way most of the anti-Jerry Springer, The Opera emails are known to have come from outside of the UK in a co-ordinated campaign.
 
True but John Cryer the MP for Hornchurch who raised the question of their conduct with the Home Secretary then found himself drowned in hate e mails . There is in fact scope for prosecuting them for public order offences if they were to attack family planning clinics
 
for a start how about treating religious intimidators in exactly the same manner non-religious intimidators are treated.
 
I fail to see the difference between intimidation on the grounds of religion, political affiliation, football club allegiance, or neighbourhood disputes. Intimidation is intimidation, no matter in what guise it arrives. If there is a mechanism for obtaining a prosecution for intimidating behaviour, threats to harm, threats to kill, etc., then why isn't it applied to all forms? I don't see the need to clutter up the law books with further definitions.

There is already a prohibition on 'incitement to religious hatred' to cover one religion trying to intimidate another, which should take care of the more rabid extremities in any religious camp. Isn't there something on the books to deal with non-religious attacks on religious beliefs, and if not, why not, since there is one to proscribe interreligous hate-mongering?

I realize that 'Beshti' covered controversial matter, and that Sikhs are no less prone to the evils of the flesh than any other human, but I'm not sure that setting a rape within the 'temple of the temple', the holiest place inside a Sikh temple, was absolutely crucial to get the point (or points) of the play across. If there was a play depicting the rape of a Christian girl on the high altar in a cathedral, wouldn't Christians feel that that was using an extremely unlikely event (I'm aware that rapes and murders do, rarely, occur in church grounds) gratuitously?
 
Originally posted by Ardross@Mar 3 2005, 09:31 PM
What next ?women picketed outside family planning clinics - gays attacked on a night out - yet more religious attempts to stop freedom of expression ?
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I read last week sometime (in the Times I think it was) as article about Christian Voice in which their "leader" did in fact state how wrong abortion & homosexuality were & how they did intend to protest or take action about them. I'm pretty sure it also said in the article that women going to abortion clinics are now being subjected to the type of ordeal that women face in the US - namely people outside with placards shouting insults at them for "murdering babies". I agree totally that something should be done about it - I can only imagine how traumatic it must be to have to have an abortion in the first place without these people intimidating & threatening you as well. Christian Voice have also been publishing addresses of people involved with abortion clinics & the like so that they can be subjected to victimisation & intimidation by others; surely that would be illegal?
 
In case anyone's interested, I found the article from the Times -


Radical Christians to target abortion clinics
By Laura Peek and James Doran in New York





This article is subject to a legal warning


A MILITANT evangelical Christian group plans to target pregnant women and medical staff at abortion clinics as it steps up its campaign against what it calls a tidal wave of filth, The Times has learnt.

An MP will make a written statement to the House of Commons next week calling on the Home Secretary to investigate the activities of Christian Voice, which shot to prominence with its campaign against Jerry Springer — The Opera. Adopting the tactics of American fundamentalist Christians, the group pickets buildings and posts the home addresses and phone numbers of its targets on the internet.

Last week, a cancer charity turned down a £3,000 donation from the show after Christian Voice threatened to picket its clinics if it accepted “tainted” money from the show.

Abortions in Britain have reached a record level. In 2003, the total number of abortions was 181,600, compared with 175,900 in 2002, a rise of 3.2 per cent. The number of girls aged 14 and under having abortions is above 1,000 a year.

The group, led by Stephen Green, gained notoriety when it circulated the home addresses and telephone numbers of senior BBC figures when the musical was screened on BBC Two last month. Some people on the list received calls threatening them with bloodshed.

Mr Green, 53, told The Times last night that his next target is abortion clinics. “The taking of innocent blood brings judgment on our land and cries to Heaven for vengeance,” he said. “The presence of abortion centres in our towns is iniquitous. They should be shut down. It would not take much: just a few prayer vigils outside clinics.”

John Cryer, the Labour MP for Hornchurch, is composing a written statement to the House calling for Charles Clarke to investigate Christian Voice. “They will be targeting women who are already in a vulnerable state, nervous and afraid with all sorts of problems, and making their lives even worse,” he said.

During questions on Commons business last week, Mr Cryer described members of Christian Voice as fundamentalist thugs for “strong-arming” the small cancer charity Maggie’s Centres into refusing a donation from Jerry Springer.

Abortion clinics said last night that they feared a rise in US-style anti-abortion tactics and are being especially vigilant. Marie Stopes said that small groups of protesters already picket some of its clinics, blocking pregnant women as they attempt to enter and thrusting leaflets into their hands. “They stand outside with posters and rosary beads,” a spokesman said. “Members of staff sometimes have to escort the women into the clinics.”

In America clinics have been firebombed and since 1991 three doctors and four members of clinic staff have been murdered. Neal Horsley, the American anti-abortionist, who posted photographs of murdered abortion doctors on the web with a red line through their faces, told The Times that he has links with groups in Britain, but refused to name them.

Mr Horsley, a convicted marijuana dealer, former member of the US Air force and Presbyterian minister, believes that the Ten Commandments justify murder to prevent the death of unborn children. “I wouldn’t do it myself, but if I was on a jury in a trial of someone who had killed one of these doctors I would acquit him,” he said.

Photographs of women visiting abortion clinics have been posted on American websites, which label them as homicidal mothers who must be held up for the world to see.

Mainstream Christian groups distanced themselves from Christian Voice, which also lobbies against homosexuality and is preparing to launch a campaign against sex education in schools. Mr Green, the author of a virulently anti-gay book called The Sexual Dead End, said: “Homosexuality is a pathology, an emotional or psychological disorder. It is a very sad thing but it is something you can get over.

“It was a bad day when they let homosexuals in the Armed Forces. People there do not want to be objects of sexual attention from blokes they are sharing a trench or tent with.”

He added: “It was an even worse day when they let women on the front line. They should be in the home. The man should be the leader in the family and the woman should be the daughter or wife under the authority of her father and then her husband.”

Mr Green is married, has four grown-up children and lives on a smallholding in Carmarthen, South Wales. He claims that Hindus are wicked and Said: “We would like to reach out to Muslims and tell them they cannot find salvation in a dead Prophet.”

He converted to Christianity when he married his wife, Caroline, in 1981, and set up Christian Voice in 1994, but became a full-time activist 15 months ago. Mr Green told The Times that he is not sure why he feels so strongly: “Perhaps the Lord thinks I have got a certain gift. With all the hate mail I have been getting, I am obviously rattling Satan’s cage.”
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"Muslims cannot find salvation in a dead Prophet"... you mean Jesus is STILL alive? AND Moses? What are the chances of that happening, hmm?

Well, it'll make a nice change from viewing every Muslim as a potential terrorist. Just as omnivorous humans are 'shite' to Honest Tom, all non-adherents to this nutter's brand of fundamentalism are satanic. God has got SO much wrong in his own image, hasn't he?
 
Christian Voice has 600 members! But since they've linked up with fundamentalists from all over they have the internet as a useful tool that gives them the appearance of a major organisation.

Stephen Green also claims that the EU is the anti-Christ that followers of prophecy are expecting. I'm not sure whether he had this view before Peter Mandelson went there...
 
Originally posted by krizon@Mar 4 2005, 01:12 PM
Just as omnivorous humans are 'shite' to Honest Tom
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Here we go again Kri. Since the above would include my parents, wife, daughter, brothers and sisters I certainly don't think that way so, as I already asked you to do on the hunting thread, could you please point out where I supposedly said that. In order to make the process as painless as possible for you I've cut and pasted all my posts on that thread up to the point you accused me of saying that.

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When it comes down to it, we've got Aushcwitz type slaughterhouses all over the place where animals are murdered for human consumption. Any sane human being who dwells on that for a while must surely realise it's not right but, since most people eat meat, most people block it out and think it can't be wrong. So, while the CA are fucking scum we're pretty much all fucking scum together.

PS I'm not putting this forward as a righteous vegetarian, I murdered them for 32 years and I've still got a leather jacket, belt and boots so I'm fucking scum as well.

The human race deserves the apocalypse.
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QUOTE (krizon @ Feb 19 2005, 09:52 PM)
the humanest possible despatch of animals


They don't have time for that Kri, and because they're some way below a Jewish child doesn't make it any more right than an alien super race breeding and slaughtering humans for food.

At some point in the future they'll look back at meat eaters with the same disdain that we view slave traders.
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QUOTE (krizon @ Feb 20 2005, 02:18 AM)
But, HT, how are you going to enforce (for that is what it will be) vegetarianism upon people who have almost no access to vegetables, such as the Aborigines, Congolese pygmies, rainforest tribes, etc., who for millennia have lived on a diet mainly comprised of grubs, insects, monkeys, lizards, rodents, fish, etc., but who do not live in conditions where vegetables can be grown? Are you going to force them even further out of touch with their traditions and make them have to buy, and become dependent on, Western-imposed artificial diets? Isn't this a form of neocolonialism?



Kri, if you're asking me to sign a petition stating that vegetarianism should be forced on everybody bar the above then I'll sign.
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While I abhor almost everything you country people are coming away with I suspect that if I had been born you I'd be coming away with the same shite. After all, it must be hard to accept that what you're supporting is vile . A bit like the the deep south and the slave trade.- I mean it's not like god was putting something in the confederate's water. Some day though you will all be viewed with the same loathing and disgust as they were (as will all meat eaters who have an alternative).

Human beings seem to be incapable of relating to the suffering of any creature (including other humans) unless they themselves suffered similarly in the last ten minutes. The fact that we regard ourselves as intelligent must be viewed as hilarious by observing aliens
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OK, so we become 'better' individuals if we cease to eat meat. So what becomes of all those species that we raise for consumption? Are they any the less worthy of existence that other species? If we don't eat 'em, several species won't even exist -so who are we to have the power over whether or not this is the case?

After all, it must be hard to accept that what you're supporting is vile
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Actually, no HT! My animals are well-care for, lead relatively stress-free lives for as long as I can legally allow them to (the sooner the 30 month rule is done away with, the better - now that IS cruel and barking!) and taste delicious. While the last few minutes of their life does undoubtedly involve stress (maybe about two minutes on average), that's just how it is. They have no conscious anticipation of their death, unlike human beings. If that's your view of 'vile' then I am very sorry for you. Life must be a real bitch for you.

As to being viewed with loathing sometime in the distant future, I don't give a flying fuck! Or now, come to that.....

Beef, anyone??
 
Good for you Julie. Sock it to 'em with the old union jack beef. Tally-ho. I'm quite sure all those animals are eternally grateful for the short existence you gave them out of the goodness of your heart. Just like you'd be grateful to that vastly superior alien race when they came for your 16 year old for the 16 great years you had.

PS I didn't think for a second you'd give a flying fuck.

Apologies for hijacking this thread in order to put Krizon right.
 
Sorry Tom but you've lost me on the class issue inferences

As in

Sock it to 'em with the old union jack beef. Tally-ho.
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Why is it on this forum (and maybe countless others for all I know), that 'class' has to be dragged in to just about every argument? In the case of vegetarianism v eating meat, it isn't relevant at all.

Of course my animals aren't eternally grateful to me - I have enough sense not to anthropormorphise them! Something a few others on here would do well to understand.

And if these aliens you're on about are so vastly superior in intellect and eating habits to us Earthlings, I can't quite equate the argument that they would be making off with 16 year olds with this supposition.

But hey, it all adds to the flavour! B)
 
Originally posted by Songsheet@Mar 4 2005, 03:30 PM
And if these aliens you're on about are so vastly superior in intellect and eating habits to us Earthlings, I can't quite equate the argument that they would be making off with 16 year olds with this supposition.
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Julie, Is that an admission that you consider a being with a high intellect couldn't possibly inflict death on another creature purely to pamper to their taste buds?

For the purpose of the argument let's say they have no choice from a self-preservation viewpoint. Food has run out on their own planet and they are allergic to animal and plant life on earth.
 
Not at all HT - just using your analogy and pointing out that it is flawed, is all!

If they're allergic to animal and plant life here on Earth, then snatching the odd 16yo to munch isn't going to improve matters - we're all made from same stuff and humans are just another animal - as you've pointed out in this argument yourself!
 
Originally posted by BrianH@Mar 4 2005, 03:23 PM
That's OK, Tom. Pretty soon every thread will be about vegeterianism, hunting, Rooster Booster and Moscow Flyer anyway...
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& Venn Ottery......
 
HT - for the purpose of record, I'm not going to waste my time to talk to you again on this or any other subject, not that either you or I actually care. As you've remained resolutely unmeetable and anonymous through your years on the forum, neither of us will be missing much. As shite, I realize my place in your scheme of things, and further discourse with you is now terminated.

Get rid of your leather, though: any claim to your being a vegan is hypocritical, regardless of whether these animals died long ago. There's a good alternative here in Brighton with Vegetarian Shoes, Gardner Street, which you ought to try to patronize, rather than me.
 
I take it you couldn't find the "shite" reference then Kri and that your continued use of it stems from some sort of guilt or realisation on your part.

Now you're not talking to me. Since you now realise the "shite" reference is a figment of your own imagination, the reason you're giving for this is that I've never flown down from Glasgow to have a cup of tea with you :lol:. Does this apply to all forumites you haven't met? Should I refrain from posting on threads not started by people who don't visit me in Glasgow?

Re vegetarian shoes. Once I've got enough dosh I'll be looking into starting up a similar company up here as there's a distinct lack of places like that for vegans but, even if I was leather free I'd probably still be called a hypocrite because every time I washed my hands I was commiting the mass murder of microorganisms.

I'll consider myself zaaaapppppeeeed then.
icon_eek.gif
 
Originally posted by Songsheet@Mar 4 2005, 02:47 PM


While the last few minutes of their life does undoubtedly involve stress (maybe about two minutes on average), that's just how it is. They have no conscious anticipation of their death,
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Darwin pointed the way in 1872 in his work "The Expression of the Emotions in Man and Animal".

Prof. Paul Ekman said in March 2000 at a Mind and Life meeting "some primates , at least , can be aware of how they feel and may be able to anticipate emotional events and suffer in advance of the pain"

Richard J Davidson (also at that meeting) has some work available on the net entitled "The primate amygdala mediates acute fear but not the behavioral and physiological components of anxious temperament"

Personally , i feel uncomfortable with your opinion , you may be right but i prefer to keep an open mind.
 
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