Schoolgirl Wins Muslim Gown Case

dvds2000

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This was in the papers today and I'm surprised theres nothing been mentioned on here about it yet

A girl was unlawfully excluded from school for wearing a traditional Muslim gown, Appeal Court judges have ruled.

Lord Justice Brooke said Denbigh High School in Luton, Beds, denied Shabina Begum, 16 - now at another school - the right to manifest her religion. He called for more guidance for schools on complying with the Human Rights Act.

Miss Begum called the ruling a victory for Muslims who wanted to "preserve their identity and values". The school said it had lost on a technicality.

Miss Begum, whose parents are both dead, had worn a regulation shalwar kameez (trousers and tunic) until September 2002 when she informed the school authorities she intended to wear a full-length gown called a jilbab. Speaking outside the Court of Appeal Miss Begum, who now attends a school where the jilbab is allowed, said Denbigh High School's action could not be viewed merely as a local decision taken in isolation. "Rather it was a consequence of an atmosphere that has been created in Western societies post 9/11, an atmosphere in which Islam has been made a target for vilification in the name of the 'war on terror'," she said. "It is amazing that in the so-called free world I have to fight to wear this attire."

In their ruling the Appeal Court judges said the school had a right to set a school uniform policy but nobody had considered Miss Begum had a right recognised by English law. The onus lay on the school to justify any interference with that right, the judges ruled.

Lord Justice Brooke said: "Instead, it started from the premise that its uniform policy was there to be obeyed: if the claimant did not like it, she could go to a different school."

Although Miss Begum had won her case, she no longer sought an order from the court that the school took her back and no longer sought any damages, he added. A spokesman for Denbigh High School, where 79% of pupils are Muslims, defended its uniform policy which he said took into account cultural and religious sensitivities. "The policy was agreed by the governing body following wide consultation with the DFES, pupils, parents, schools and leading Muslim organisations."

The case had been lost due to a "small, technical breach" of the Human Rights Act, the spokesman added. "The judges accepted that the school is entitled to have a uniform policy and could see nothing wrong with it," he said. A spokesperson for Luton borough council said they would be developing guidance on school uniform and advising Luton schools' governing bodies to review their uniform policy to take account of religious and cultural needs. The ruling, which has major implications for multi-faith schools across the country, has been welcomed by the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB) as a "common-sense approach".

MCB Secretary-General Iqbal Sacranie said: "This is a very important ruling on the issue of personal freedoms. The British Muslim community is a diverse community in terms of the interpretation and understanding of their faith and its practice. Within this broad spectrum those that believe and choose to wear the jilbab and consider it to be part of their faith requirement for modest attire should be respected."

Link to BBC story

What do people think about this? Personally I think it's terrible. She knew of the school's policy on uniforms when she started there and chose to still go. If she didn't like it then why not go to a different school.

To be honest I don't even think schools should have different uniforms for anyone, but in this case they did have a different uniform for Muslims, which they had implemented with help from the local Muslim community, and everyone else was happy with.
 
I have nothing to add to a local and complex debate. Its just when I saw the topic title I wanted to reply before Gearoid did.
 
Couldn't agree more DV.

Possibly no one has raised a thread because it's so bleedin' obvious the ruling is wrong that little discussion would result from it.

Apart from the judge and a few attention-seeking religious fundamentalists, the only people to welcome this will be the BNP and fellow-travellers.
 
In the hope of starting some sort of philosophical debate, I would like to ask the question: "what is the essential difference between a person refusing to wear school uniform because of their religion and one doing so because of their non-religious convictions?" Followed by: "is it right that religion---all religion, that is---has such a privileged position in our society?"

I'm not in the habit of asking rhetorical questions.
 
I doubt that a Rastafarian child would have been prevented from wearing his hair in the Rastafari style (which is religiously prescribed), or that the school would have insisted on a Sikh teacher shaving off his beard (ditto). This is a huge storm in a chai cup. School uniforms were originated to provide the school with a public identity (Eton collar, Harrovian tie, etc.), based on style and colours.

It seems that Denbigh's colours are black and maroon. There would be no problem at all to request Miss Begum to comply with the uniform colours - she could have worn a maroon headscarf and black jilbab and still have been in 'uniform'.

Some people seem to have a problem with the outward manifestations of religious beliefs. Jews may wear their skullcaps, Muslim girls their scarves, Catholics their crucifixes (and employ their rosaries), Buddhists their yellow, and so on, let alone what other variations on the theme of belief manifest elsewhere in the world of Quakers and the Amish. What's the problem? All of it signifies nothing to other than the person concerned, so why not let them enjoy their faiths?

For once, I'm on the anti-homogeneity side. I'm tired of rules and edicts trying to MacDonaldize us all into the same size bun, with the same bland flavour. We're told we're a multi-cultural, multi-faith society, which in itself means we are NOT all the same - thank goodness. Schools, use a bit of imagination! Governments, get off our backs!

As for religions' "privileged" position in British society? - I'm not sure I understand your question, Prufrock. Are you saying that it HAS such a position, and is that a good thing? Or are you asking if it's actually correct that it has such a position?
 
This case has been wholly misreported .

The Court of Appeal pointed out that

1. Unlike say Turkey which is a secular state the UK not only is not a secular state but allows religious education and faith schools #

2. As such the school already permitted Muslim girls to wear a headscarf which marked their religious identity

3. Thus as they could already be identified in that way was it necessary in a democratic society to place a restriction on Muslim girls who had reached puberty from covering themselves more comprehensively.

4. Thus the school should have approached the question following her Article 9 rights to express her religion . In this case essentially the school had not asked iself the right question i.e did its restrictions on uniform justify its interference with her Article 9 rights i.e in order to protect the rights and freedoms of others .

Thus if the school asked the question in that way and came to a reasoned conclusion why the jilbab was inappropriate for school uniform the decision would be unlikely to be interfered with .
 
Good Morning.
No school uniforms in Germany.

No significant fall off in educational standards have been observed.

Dressing kids up in uniform has little or no effect on educational standards.
 
I'd have to agree with Krizon on this one - personally I don't really see the problem in allowing the girl to wear clothes that her religion dictates she should - it's not as though it would be harming anybody. If, however, the concern was from a safety point of view that would be a different kettle of fish altogether but from what has been reported it appears that the objections to the girl's jilbab was merely because it did not fit in withthe school's unifiorm policy.
 
As for religions' "privileged" position in British society? - I'm not sure I understand your question, Prufrock. Are you saying that it HAS such a position, and is that a good thing? Or are you asking if it's actually correct that it has such a position?

The former.

As a free-thinking product of a liberal upbringing there are many values I believe in strongly. Society tolerates me but makes no special concessions to me: my views on a multitude of issues, of which the wearing of school uniform is just one, may be openly challenged and ridiculed (they often are!). By comparison, a strong believer in a religion is likely to be afforded greater protection or leniency in certain circumstances, simply by virtue of their being religious.
 
Originally posted by Derek.Burgess@Mar 4 2005, 09:18 AM
No school uniforms in Germany.

No significant fall off in educational standards have been observed.

Dressing kids up in uniform has little or no effect on educational standards.
First of all, thanks to Ardross for clearing this one up.

Derek, says who?

Where did you get your facts? What does the German equivalent of HMIE say?

I ask because my understanding is quite the reverse and that leading German educationalists have been trawling Scotland and Canada gathering evidence to support their wish to promote the educational and social advantages of school uniform.

HME (Scotland) has just produced an extensive report concluding that the uniform is very important in helping better behaviour and better learning.
 
This looks like being a fascinating topic! Ardross, many thanks for the clarity. The only reason why a school or any other organization might need to restrict certain elements of religious adherence to dress codes, is where Muslim women decide they wish to be ENTIRELY covered, including the heavy face veil, which is usually made of several layers of black muslin. This would be purely on the grounds of Health & Safety issues, though. With the Ayatollah coming to power in Iran in the late 70s, there was an outburst of high conservatism, and women who previously had left their faces bare, decided to cover them, too, resulting in several fall accidents. The Koran does not direct women to veil themselves, but to wear modest clothing.

You can imagine that such restricted eyesight would debar them from driving. That would bring about a direct conflict between religious freedom and plain commonsense, let alone the Highway Code. However, it probably won't be long before this issue, too, gets raised.

Additionally, Sikh males wishing to wear their (religiously-required) knife might find themselves under some duress, especially if trying to work in large buildings where all entrants must pass through a metal detector. "Oh, not AGAIN, Mr Singh!", as the SAS storms the building...
 
Hi Maurice,
i cannot say what the future holds.These officials that you describe are scouring Scotland and Canada with the future in mind,i presume.

I can state that my Grand Daughter has never had to wear anything other than street clothes for school.

She starts Gymnasium in August and there is no requirement at that school for Uniform.

In my own experience,having lived in Germany for many years,any kind of Standardisation of dress in Schools would go down like a lead brick,when one considers the past.
 
Originally posted by Derek.Burgess@Mar 4 2005, 01:21 PM
In my own experience,having lived in Germany for many years,any kind of Standardisation of dress in Schools would go down like a lead brick,when one considers the past.
It's not hard to appreciate that view, Derek, but I can assure you that the Bertelsmann organisation has been sponsoring intensive research here and in Canada (and other places, I should add), and our own Inspectorate's recent report was unequivocal.
 
I'd have to agree with Krizon on this one - personally I don't really see the problem in allowing the girl to wear clothes that her religion dictates she should - it's not as though it would be harming anybody.

But thats not the point in my view. The point is, the school has a uniform policy, one that also includes special uniforms for Muslim girls, which were approved by the local Muslim leaders apparently, but this girl thought she should go one step further. No other complaints were recieved by the school from the other Muslim girls, so why should this one be any different?

but from what has been reported it appears that the objections to the girl's jilbab was merely because it did not fit in withthe school's unifiorm policy.

there were other reasons actually, valid reasons in my view.

http://www.courtservice.gov.uk/judgmentsfi...ghighschool.htm

Full judgement
 
Maurice,
Schools in Germany

Ralf at the board
© Juma http://www.juma.de
First day at Primary School
© Deutscher Süßwarenverband http://www.suessefacts.de
The German school system as such is comparatively old since compulsory schooling was first introduced in 1717. The school system as it is today dates back to the 1960/70s when the existing system underwent some major changes. Being an industrial country with almost no raw materials Germany is largely dependent on a skilled labour force and therefore invests heavily in education.

All children start school when they are six years old and attend primary school (Grundschule) for four years. In some "Bundesländer" (federal states), for example Berlin and Brandenburg, primary school lasts six years. According to their talents and preferences children then go to one of the following post primary schools: Hauptschule, Realschule, Gymnasium, or Gesamtschule.

All students attending a post-primary school have to learn at least one foreign language. Most students learn English, a few start off with French and some with Russian. (Russian used to be the main foreign language in the former German Democratic Republic before the unification). Unlike Irish students German students do not wear a school uniform and attend school only in the mornings. In post-primary schools students have to to repeat a year (click here) for a reading text with exercises in German in connection with this system) if their marks are far below the average in two of their subjects. This dreaded rule applies, for example, if a student gets the equivalent of two Es or one F in his/her end of year report. (German marks range from 1 (very good) to 6 (unsatisfactory)).

das Schulsystem (Tabelle)The Hauptschule (main school) is geared towards students who want to do an apprenticeship (Lehre) when they have finished school. Thus the main emphasis is put on teaching practical skills and the practical application of the theoretical knowledge acquired in the various subjects. Students attend the Hauptschule for six years and finish by acquiring a certificate called Hauptschulabschluss.

The Realschule (intermediate school) offers a broader general education than the Hauptschule. Students have, for instance, the option to learn a second foreign language. Generally speaking the individual subjects are studied in greater depth and students are expected to work more independently than in the Hauptschule. In comparison to the Gymnasium, however, the Realschule offers a more vocationally oriented education.

Students who go to the Gymnasium (grammar school) attend school for nine years before doing their final exam which is called Abitur. The Gymnasium is aimed at students who want to study at a university (Universität) or technical college (Fachhochschule). Thus considerable emphasis is put on academic learning and a large variety of subjects are taught. After the first six years the students can specialise in certain areas (humanities, science, etc.). In comparison to the Hauptschule and the Realschule students of a Gymnasium are expected to be fairly self-motivated. Because the Gymnasium lasts for nine years and German children start school later than their Irish counterparts German school leavers tend to be two to three years older than Irish ones. For a comparison of European school system go to http://aaonline.dkf.de/europa_kommt/

Anne-Frank-Gesamtschule , Eschwege
© Anne-Frank-Gesamtschule

This school is interested in a partner-school from Ireland. Interested schools may contact the Anne-Frank-Schule via their Webpage at the above link.
In 1969 a new type of school, the Gesamtschule (comprehensive school), was introduced. The Gesamtschule basically corresponds to Irish Comprehensive Schools, but it has not been adopted universally in Germany. One reason for this is that the various "Länder" have a say in what kind of schools and what form of schooling they want to promote. All of the 16 Bundesländer in Germany have their own Ministry for Education and can exercise a certain freedom in regard to the school system of the Bundesland. Bundesländer with a traditionally more conservative government have been less enthusiastic about introducing the Gesamtschule than others. In Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg, for instance, there are only three Gesamtschulen. In North-Rhine Westfalia, however, there are 203 comprehensive schools.

Although the Ministers of Education have had to agree on a basic system which all of the Länder have to adhere to the regional differences are considerable. In Bavaria ,for example, the Abitur resembles the Higher Leaving Certificate in so far as the exams are set by the Ministry and all students sit them on the same day. In North-Rhine Westfalia the teachers of each school set the exam for their subjects themselves. Thus at different schools different exams are taken in the same subject.

These are only some of the many differences which exist in the various Bundesländer. The reasons for the differences are the varying regional traditions. The advantage of this variety is that it allows for a certain diversity in culture.

Since the turn of the last century there have been a number of well-known alternative schools in Germany. Two of the longest standing are the Waldorf-Schulen and the Montessori -Schulen which offer both primary and post-primary schooling. The alternative schools in Germany are private and therefore fee-paying schools. However, they are not elitist and basically open to everyone.

Currently there are about 1 million non-German students attending schools in Germany. Since their number has constantly risen over the years some adaptations have been made. Children who were not born in Germany or whose parents do not speak German at home sometimes have problems with the German language and need extra lessons (Förderunterricht) in order to improve their oral and writing skills.

Foreigners whose children are born and raised in Germany are often concerned that their children are losing their cultural roots. So children with non-German parents have the right to some tuition in the mother tongue of their parents, and German schools provide extra lessons for them in languages like Turkish, Polish, etc..

Students with a disability usually attend a Sonderschule (special school). There are various kinds of special schools which specialise in different kinds of disability (e.g. schools for the deaf, for children with speech defects, etc.). However, many people are now favouring the idea of educating disabled children with non-disabled children, and many normal and special schools have started to work together. These are termed "cooperative forms of school". Depending on the disability a disabled child can now also attend a normal school .



Vocational Training

Vocational training in communications electronics
© Siemens AG Munich
Carpenters having finished their apprenticeship
Seventy per cent of the students who finish post-primary school then go on to work in a company, a workshop, private business or industry. Unlike in other countries, however, the vocational training is not solely left to the employer. Apart from the training and the experience that the trainees gain at the workplace they also attend a vocational school (Berufsschule) where they are taught various subjects relating to their work. The so called dual system (work experience plus specialised theoretical knowledge) has the advantage of giving young people a broad base in their vocational training and providing them with specialised knowledge for skilled work (click these links for examples of vocational training and a guild ). The dual system has its roots in the system which the guilds founded to train their craftsmen and thus dates back to the Middle Ages. The guilds were craftsmen associations, set up to protect their members' rights and defend their interests. Since almost all jobs now require a relatively high degree of technical skill as well as specialised knowledge the dual system of vocational training has proved to be very effective.
 
Originally posted by dvds2000@Mar 4 2005, 02:32 PM
I'd have to agree with Krizon on this one - personally I don't really see the problem in allowing the girl to wear clothes that her religion dictates she should - it's not as though it would be harming anybody.

But thats not the point in my view. The point is, the school has a uniform policy, one that also includes special uniforms for Muslim girls, which were approved by the local Muslim leaders apparently, but this girl thought she should go one step further. No other complaints were recieved by the school from the other Muslim girls, so why should this one be any different?
That reasoning effectively says though, that all Muslims' beliefs are the same - it is like saying all Christians' beliefs are the same although Catholics, Anglicans, Methodists & so on all differ slightly in their beliefs. Different forms of Islam, I'm sure, differ in the same way that different forms of Christianity differ - compare, for example, the Anglican Church to the Amish Church & you will find that their beliefs differ enormously. Where one Muslim may find it perfectly acceptable to bare her forearms (for example) in public, another would find that a horrendous concept. It is with this in mind that I believe that alllowances should be made to cater to the different beliefs of various forms of the religion under discussion, in this instance, Islam. We have a vast Muslim community here in Gibraltar & the women do all dress in various guises - a lot of the younger women will wear western clothes with a headscarf whilst to the other extreme there are also many women who do wear what I guess would be the jilbab, a large shapeless garment that covers their whole body, accompanied by a veil also with just a small slit in it for the eyes.

QUOTE
but from what has been reported it appears that the objections to the girl's jilbab was merely because it did not fit in withthe school's unifiorm policy.



there were other reasons actually, valid reasons in my view.

Reading the judgement that you posted, it still seems to me that the school's objections were due to the jilbab not conforming with their school uniform policy due to the school's belief that the shalwar kameeze adhered to the Muslim religion in their view which brings me back to the point I made above regarding different forms of Islam.
 
Are we seriously suggesting here that the wearing of school uniforms in Germany would give rise to a new wave of National Socialism? Or even militarism? :what:
 
Shadow, well done, that's a very apt point which bypasses people with little or no real exposure to Islam. The shalwar kameez is mostly worn by Pakistani women, with the 'dopatta', the light shawl, worn across the front and shoulders to prevent the bust from being too obvious. It's a very attractive outfit, even Princess Diana wore a designer version of it when she visited Imran and Jemima Khan in Pakistan. BUT... as you have very sensibly pointed out, that's fine for certain women, in certain countries, and even in certain areas of those countries!

In Saudi and most of the Gulf, the 'abaya' is like the jilbab, a finely-spun black coat which covers what's underneath (in many cases some very smart party gear!), and an often beautifully-embroidered and decorated headscarf. I have one of the latter in finest muslin, decorated with rhinestones! But over in the Western Province, out of the big towns, there are women not wearing anything like these clothes at all. In fact, they wear straw hats and colourful blouses and skirts, rather like Omani village women. To presume there is 'Islamic dress' is to utterly ignore (as in, be ignorant of) the many, many varieties which this embraces from country to country, both for men and for women.

It's like assuming 'Western dress' doesn't differ due to an individual's taste, and what is suited to one occasion, or culture, or country. While interesting, a man in a Hell's Angels jacket and tight jeans at a mid-February meeting at Plumpton would look just a tad out of place, as would a tweeds-and-brogues wearer in Las Vegas (allowances made for Brian). Yet they're both considered 'Western'. :blink:
 
I'm not religious but there were no allowances made for my not being religious when I was at school. I feel quite unhappy about this. No compulsory school uniforms would allow those who are religious (or whose parents are religious) to dress as they wished and those whose parents objected to the wearing of school uniforms at all could dress as they like. Since there is a uniform, those whose parents feel that it is beneficial to the education (because I pay so much more attention to rote learning tasks when I'm wearing a too small shirt and tie) of their little darling can also be satiated.
 
Reading the judgement that you posted, it still seems to me that the school's objections were due to the jilbab not conforming with their school uniform policy due to the school's belief that the shalwar kameeze adhered to the Muslim religion in their view which brings me back to the point I made above regarding different forms of Islam.

These were more what I was reffering to

Several staff have been approached by non-Muslim pupils saying that they are afraid of people wearing the jilbab, as they perceive this form of dress to be associated with extreme views. This makes them feel vulnerable. Whilst I would not consider it right to pander to the prejudices or fears of some pupils, I think it would be most unfortunate if some pupils were to be held in fear by others, or regarded as in some way separate, because of the clothes they wear.

Similarly this view has also been reflected by some Muslim girls who have indicated to staff that they do not wish to wear the jilbab, as this would identify them as belonging to extreme Muslim sects. They do not wish to be identified with such people.

In a recent pupil survey, not connected with wearing of the jilbab, there was a space for further comments. Many pupils indicated how much they liked Denbigh High School and the uniform in particular. One pupil suggested that the school introduce the jilbab. She did not suggest that she wanted to wear one. As she wears trousers to school and not the shalwar kameeze, I think it unlikely that she would wish to adopt the jilbab. There have been no other suggestions from pupils, parents, governors or teachers that we adopt the jilbab.

At the Appeal hearing the Claimant indicated that although she does not regard Muslims who wear the shalwar kameeze as bad people, she does think better Muslims wear the jilbab. I would not wish to see the introduction of two classes of Muslim, the inferior class that wears the shalwar kameeze and the better Muslim who wears the jilbab. In my view that would lead to real risk of pressure being brought upon Muslim girls to wear the jilbab or be regarded as religious inferiors. I would fear that this could lead to some girls feeling pressured into wearing the jilbab when they would prefer to wear the shalwar kameeze and might wish to avoid being classified with the kinds of people they believe wear the jilbab.

He ended by expressing a concern that if the school uniform was changed in the way the claimant suggested, this would lead to divisiveness within the school and would threaten the cohesion within the school.

It was important in his experience to recognise that many adolescents require a lot of support to understand the importance of inclusion, equal opportunities, mutual respect and social cohesion, such as was fostered by the school’s uniform policy. He attested to the same concerns among a number of girls at the school as Mr Moore had mentioned, and he believed that the school had a duty to protect these pupils from inappropriate peer pressures, or pressures from outside extremist groups. There had been an incident in February 2004 when some young men who represented an extremist Muslim group had picketed the school gates and distributed leaflets to the pupils which exhorted Muslims not to send their children to secular schools. A number of pupils understandably felt harassed by these activities.
 
I can tell you, when you're in the front line, so to speak, and you've hundreds of kids vying to out-dress each other in what they wear or in how cool and/or different they can look, you are well placed to see that they completely lose any notion of why they've come to school in the first place. It also leads to petty jealousy and bullying.

A simple, affordable uniform eliminates a good 90% of these issues and the other 10% are much more easily dealt with.

Maybe the situation is different in places like Germany.
 
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