Sprinter Sacre: should he run at further distances?

"Thrust" The force that propels an object in a given direction, when generated by the object itself, like a POWERFUL engine Just like Sprinter Sacre :lol:
 
2 Questions. If Cue Card and Flemenstar did turn up to take on Sprinter Sacre how far would hehave to beat them to put up a 192 and how far would he have to beat them to hit near on 200 with Timeform?
 
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Assuming Cue Card is a 175 (ball park figure) horse, I reckon over 2.5m (miles not metres) the 19-length gubbing he gave Sizing Retirement would be good enough for a rating of 192. Then maybe if Geraghty let out an inch of rein and allowed him to win by only a further eight lengths, the 200 mark would be reached.
 
I'd go 169 both CC and Flemenstar, though with both capable of a bit more at the trip. I'm in broad agreement with DO in that winning a similar distance at Aintree as he did in Cheltenham, would put him in 190 territory.

That said, if he won 20 lengths, I'm not sure the official handicapper could stop himself awarding a mark starting with a '2'. He could quite easily make a plausible case for further improvement in Flem and CC that support that kind of number.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with the mark, but a cogent argument could be sustained.....if Sacre were to win 20L.
 
Henderson on this afternoon's supposed racing programme: Aintree, breeders' keep telling him mad to stick over 2m, dam side 3 miles, 3 miles, 3 miles, needs to race unlike others, ground may be factor if weather continues as high cruising speed and that is the main 'doubt' to sustain over further as he, SS, likes to go 'that' speed all the way. But reading between the bad sub titles, and Henderson's demeanour, I would say odds on he, SS, will be at Aintree (ground only a doubt)
 
Does anyone else think horses are being hyped up more and rated higher since the internet came along and with racing channels like ATR and RUK.

So many more people have access to give their opinion

Years ago the handicapper or timeform gave their opinion without reading others opinions on twitter and sites like racingpost and such.

Its a bit like jury's not allowed to watch the news or read papers if they were allowed there would be alot more different outcomes in court.

Im not saying Sprinter Sacre does'nt deserve a high rating just something I've taught of lately.

I wonder would Desert Orchid of got a higher rating if he was running in these times.
 
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BigRob said:
Does anyone else think horses are being hyped up more and rated higher since the internet came along and with racing channels like ATR and RUK.

So many more people have access to give their opinion

Years ago the handicapper or timeform gave their opinion without reading others opinions on twitter and sites like racingpost and such.

Its a bit like jury's not allowed to watch the news or read papers if they were allowed there would be alot more different outcomes in court.

Im not saying Sprinter Sacre does'nt deserve a high rating just something I've taught of lately.

I wonder would Desert Orchid of got a higher rating if he was running in these times.
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I don't think so.

If anyone came out nowadays and suggested Arkle was a 212 horse they'd be accused of hype. Best Mate is getting to be ancient history and he was one of the most hyped horses of modern times yet was clearly only a 178 horse. Desert Orchid (chronologically between those two) was over 190.

Istabraq is God reincarnate yet seldom posted a rating higher than the mid 170s.

I think we now tend to be far more conservative than before even when we state it more loudly.
 
You've got to take a long hard look at Arkle and it doesn't take long to realize something isn't quite right with that 212 rating even allowing for Timeform being higher than the BHA

The first thing that springs to mind is we didn't have 1 Arkle we had 2 because Flyingbolt was rated right up there with him.

That's like sayiing we got 2 Frankels or 2 Secretariats and it just so happens they both appeared out of the blue in the same season...the odds are like 10 zillion to 1.

They were without doubt 2 outstanding horses but how did Arkle get to such a high rating?

In his entire career no horse bar Mill House worth a pinch of salt took him on at level weights. He beat Mill House in the Gold Cup when he was at his best by 5 lengths, the next year he beat Mill House by 20 lengths but how much of that was down to Mill House losing his way or Arkle improving is hard to say as the big horse was plagued by back trouble most of his life.

The following year was a joke Dormant and Snaigow followed him home beaten 30 lengths but neither would have been sighted in Denman or Kauto's Gold Cups either.

Back then most top races were handicaps like the King George S.G.B. Handicap ’chase the Gallagher Gold Cup and the Hennessy and Arkle won them all beating inferior animals conceding lumps of weight.

The best around bar Mill House were What A Myth and Stalbridge Colonist but neither ran in Arkle's Gold cup but did take him on in the Hennessy and the latter managed to beat him getting 35lbs.

He carried 12st 10lbs when beaten by Flying Wild and Bouna Notte so like us all he had his limits.

Some might argue Bouna Notte was agood guide to how good Arkle actually was. He was a top novice at the time and probably had the same ability as Cue Card had as a novice but perhaps not as good as Simonsig.

He was getting 26lbs from Arkle and beat him 1 length but had he not ploughed through the last it would have been much further. 4 length would be conservative.

Giving Bouna Notte the benefit of the doubt lets give him the same rating as Simonsig a 162 add 26 lbs and Arkle comes out at 188 with the BHA

Others might add 35lbs to Sir Des Champ 168 who like Stalbridge Colonist finished 2nd in a Gold Cup and you come out at 203. Stalbridge was getting 35lbs when he beat Arkle.

It's not an exact science nothing is in the game but in reality Arkle was somehwere between 188 and the 202 mark.

Another way of looking at is is to grab any middle of the road chaser like Somersby eg.

Somersby is rated 161 so for Sprinter Sacre to get a 201 he'd have to give Somsersby 40lbs or beat him by 40 lengths.

Like: Sprinter Sacre 12st 12lbs V Somersby 10st.

If it were Simonsig 170 Sprinter Sacre would have to give him 5 lbs more than Arkle tried to give Bouna Notte

Say Sprinter Sacre 12st 4lbs Simonsig 10st or beat him by 31 lengths which is just ridiculous.

I'd be tempted to rate Arkle somewhere in the middle of his 2 defeats (188+202)/2 = 195 BHA and Sprinter Sacre about 190 with a BHA P if there is such athing

In Timeform terms if Arkle was 212 then Sprinter Sacre should be roughly 208 IMO he's that close
 
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BigRob said:
Does anyone else think horses are being hyped up more and rated higher since the internet came along and with racing channels like ATR and RUK.

So many more people have access to give their opinion

Years ago the handicapper or timeform gave their opinion without reading others opinions on twitter and sites like racingpost and such.

Its a bit like jury's not allowed to watch the news or read papers if they were allowed there would be alot more different outcomes in court.

Im not saying Sprinter Sacre does'nt deserve a high rating just something I've taught of lately.

I wonder would Desert Orchid of got a higher rating if he was running in these times.
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I think Hype isn't a word you can use for horses like Istabraq Hurricane Fly Kauto Star Denman Sprinter Sacre etc but the media are very guilty of saying things like Simonsig V Sprinter Sacre the clash of the decade or eg Hurricane Fly and Old Conor could clash when one trainer has said openly it is extremely doubtful. They will say these things with full knowledge it hasn't a cat in hells chance of happening just to create interest...........that's their job. So if you want to be a racing journalist learn to tell lies and smile doing it :lol:
 
The first thing that springs to mind is we didn't have 1 Arkle we had 2 because Flyingbolt was rated right up there with him.

That's like sayiing we got 2 Frankels or 2 Secretariats and it just so happens they both appeared out of the blue in the same season...the odds are like 10 zillion to 1.

i wonder what the odds are of one trainer having such as Denman, Kauto Star & Master Minded at the same time...couldn't happen could it?;)

come on Tanlic..you been banging on about SS and now you are tyring to reduce Arkle's rating to meet up with SS

we get it..SS is phenominal..no one is in any doubt of that..but there isn't much point trying to drag one horse down just to reinforce it..we have had this discussion a lot..i think DO tried to put some ratings on Arkle somewhere on a thread

Dormant won a KG..are you sure he wouldn't have been placed in KS or Denman GC?
 
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EC1 said:
..i think DO tried to put some ratings on Arkle somewhere on a thread
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I did. I'll check back through my own files to see if I saved it. It might also still be around via the 'search' facility.

If I remember it right, I was taking notional levels of top-weight winners of certain big handicaps and applying the idea of the separate handicaps compiled if Arkle was entered. The 212 wasn't OTT.

As for exceptional horses being unlikely to be around at the same time, the crop that Sea Bird regularly laughed at was arguably the strongest ever assembled in a two-season period. Mill Reef and Brigadier Gerard were peers in a good two-season period.

Sea The Stars and Frankel are chronologically close, if not peers.
 
Desert Orchid said:
I did. I'll check back through my own files to see if I saved it. It might also still be around via the 'search' facility.

If I remember it right, I was taking notional levels of top-weight winners of certain big handicaps and applying the idea of the separate handicaps compiled if Arkle was entered. The 212 wasn't OTT.

As for exceptional horses being unlikely to be around at the same time, the crop that Sea Bird regularly laughed at was arguably the strongest ever assembled in a two-season period. Mill Reef and Brigadier Gerard were peers in a good two-season period.

Sea The Stars and Frankel are chronologically close, if not peers.
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I think that SS is actually proving that getting to a 212 is not the impossible rating many people have believed..instead of trying to reduce Arkle to 200 we should all want to see a horse in real time actually get to a 212 and then people may just believe that Arkle was himself at that level

a couple of years ago people thought KS was probably as good as its humanly possible to be after his KG win that blew everyone away..we are now seeing a horse that wins even more easily than he did against possibly better horses

SS will imo show that attaining a 210 may be possible..if he ever gets asked...but lets not forget that Arkle wasn't asked in that Gallagher Gold cup either

also its a mistake to think Mill House wasn't as good in his later meetings with Arkle..he won the whitbread off top weight in 1967
 
I find it quite odd that owner Caroline Mould just admitted on the Racing Forum that she wasn't aware until yesterday that SS's breeding on the dam's side suggests that he will stay. When you buy a horse, isn't the pedigree one of the first things you investigate?
 
EC1 said:
The first thing that springs to mind is we didn't have 1 Arkle we had 2 because Flyingbolt was rated right up there with him.

That's like sayiing we got 2 Frankels or 2 Secretariats and it just so happens they both appeared out of the blue in the same season...the odds are like 10 zillion to 1.

i wonder what the odds are of one trainer having such as Denman, Kauto Star & Master Minded at the same time...couldn't happen could it?;)

come on Tanlic..you been banging on about SS and now you are tyring to reduce Arkle's rating to meet up with SS

we get it..SS is phenominal..no one is in any doubt of that..but there isn't much point trying to drag one horse down just to reinforce it..we have had this discussion a lot..i think DO tried to put some ratings on Arkle somewhere on a thread

Dormant won a KG..are you sure he wouldn't have been placed in KS or Denman GC?
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I am not trying to downgrade Arkle at all that would be impossible..Timeform are a completely different matter......I have tried to put some sort of case together citing horses who beat him. I saw Bouna Notte run and he was very good but no better than the likes of Cue Card and certainly not as explosive as Simonsig and the Mare who won the race Flying Wild wouldn't be as good as say Bobsworth by any stretch of the imagination.

The reason I split the difference was the Massey Ferguson was over a shorter distance than Arkle's best.

You put forward Dormant. He wouldn't be sighted in a current day King George, he'd have been a bad 3rd in that race had Woodland Venture not tipped up at the second last and that was the race that was to be Arkle's last that he won.

Arkle broke a fetlock down the back and finished on 3 legs and anyway it was not a King George as we know it it was a handicap and Dormant only ran in it as a fill in getting 21lbs. He won by 1 length after he looked like getting beat a distance which anyone who saw the race would condirm

Kauto Star and Denman weren't rated 212 and 210 EC and some would argue there have been better 3 milers than either of them. I am not one of them but none of them were so far ahead of Dessie Pendil Captain Christie that you couldn't put a case up for them.............Time form have Kauto Star on the same rating as Mill House who Arkle beat by 30 lengths in a Gold Cup......Do you honestly think any horse could have given Kauto that sort of beating in a King George? I don't
 
EC1 said:
can we put a rating on the Gallagher race??

http://www.fatjockey.com/videos-pic...?Arkle--The-1965-Gallagher-Gold-Cup-Sandown-1
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Seen it that many times I don't have to look. Mill House to be fair was past his best. The track record was set by some handicapper and the race has been defunk for decades and Sandown no longer have a 3 mile Grade 1 race to compare it to.

What Arkle did that day was give 26lbs to Rondetto and beat him 20 lengths Mill house finishing 4 lengths behind Rondetto which doesn't compute. But it makes a good story and was a top notch performance as Rondetto was no mug.

Rondetto carried 10st1lb when he won the Hennessy will give you an idea of where he was at as a racehorse.

Plenty horses won of similar weights for you too play about with
 
Tanlic said:
Seen it that many times I don't have to look. Mill House to be fair was past his best. The track record was set by some handicapper and the race has been defunk for decades and Sandown no longer have a 3 mile Grade 1 race to compare it to.

What Arkle did that day was give 26lbs to Rondetto and beat him 20 lengths Mill house finishing 4 lengths behind Rondetto which doesn't compute. But it makes a good story and was a top notch performance as Rondetto was no mug.

Rondetto carried 10st1lb when he won the Hennessy will give you an idea of where he was at as a racehorse.

Plenty horses won of similar weights for you too play about with
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how good was rondetto though..just because he carried 10.1 in the henessey doesn't tell me much..was he well in

what weight did Rondetto carry in the national does anyone know..maybe that would put a rating to him
 
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1965. William Hill Handicap Chase (Cheltenham Festival)
Winner...Rondetto (11st 10lbs).

1966. Hennessy Gold Cup. Winner in photo...Stalbridge Colonist, receiving 35lbs from Arkle.

1967. Hennessy Gold Cup. Winner- Rondetto, receiving 20lbs from Stalbridge Colonist(second) who would have won but for being badly hampered.

Rondetto must have had a reasonable rating winning the WH handicap off 11/10?..150/155?

that makes Arkle a 196/201 minimum..add to that how easy has he won?
 
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Arkle never did anything else but go flat to the boards over the last 3 fences except for the time when SC beat him and Patte Taffe messed up.

Rondetto was an old fav of mines along with What A Myth and Rondetto was my first email name. He ran in 4 nationals. 1965 was his year he went into the National having won 3 of his last 4 races including the Stones Ginger Wine and the William Hill plus he had beaten Mill House into 3rd behind Arkle. The handicapper absolutely slaughtered him giving him 11st 6lb but he was travelling like the winner and well clear when he fell at the 26th fence.

In 67 What A Myth who had won 6 out of 7 races falling in the Grand National in 66 Started with another win then finished 3rd to SC when he beat Arkle. He carried 12st in the National, Rondetto 11st7lb. Both off impossible marks they went of at 20/1 and 33/1 in Foinavon's race. With luck Rondetto would have won but only because he got over the fence and Jeff King was knocked out of the saddle by a lose horse. His mark was far too high and his form at the time was woeful ' He was pulled up and finished unplaced 3 times and had only 1 3rd place to his name.

In 68 his form improved a fair bit winning 2 races inc the Hennsessy and was placed 3 times unplaced only once. What A Myth won 2 races and was placed in 3 and was given 12st again but this time Rondetto had 9lbs less to carry on 10st12lb. Rondetto was again running a blinder until he fell at the 23rd fence as he moved up to challenge. What a Myth had fallen earlier in the race.

He was 13 years Old in his final nationa when he finished 3rd in his final try in 69 but the handicapper had dropped him a good few pounds and he carried 10st 6lbs The winner Highland Wedding who won the Eider carried 10st and won by 12 lengths.

I knew What A Myth and Rondetto like I knew the back of my hand and at National weights Rondetto wouldn't have got within 10 length of What A Myth so I doubt if his national weights can tell you much.

What A Myth who was giving 2lbs to Stalbridge Colonist when he beat Arkle in the Hennessy would have won in another 50 yards or so.

Considering Arkle beat Rondetto by 20 lengths giving him 26lbs he'd be 46 lengths behind Arkle What A Myth was 33lbs behind him so it's safe to say Rondetto was probably 6lbs to 10lbs wrong or more for most of his racing life. There was nothing between What a Myth and Stalbridge Colonist which just about backs that up

To be honest he was kinda slow and expensive to follow after one very good season
 
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