The Path To 9/11
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I won't ruin for you then Gal 
But one couldn't help but be struck by the prominence of Iraq throughout the whole thing, and the fact that they appear to have jumped a critical 18 months, as some awkward questions lie there. (Millenium straight into 9/11)
I was thinking, of starting a thread along the lines of 'where were you' etc given that the media appears to have declared open season on this question. With a few hundred members I suspect we might have a couple of interesting ones?
But one couldn't help but be struck by the prominence of Iraq throughout the whole thing, and the fact that they appear to have jumped a critical 18 months, as some awkward questions lie there. (Millenium straight into 9/11)
I was thinking, of starting a thread along the lines of 'where were you' etc given that the media appears to have declared open season on this question. With a few hundred members I suspect we might have a couple of interesting ones?
BrianH
At the Start
What with television and the printed media, I'm already over 9/11'd and we're only five minutes into the day itself.
I have received a text to remind me that September 11th 2001 was the date on which I was someone's Phone a Friend on "Who Wants To Be A Millionaire".
I have received a text to remind me that September 11th 2001 was the date on which I was someone's Phone a Friend on "Who Wants To Be A Millionaire".
I'm over-Diana'd, over-9/11'd, over-war on terrorismed and definitely over-Brownblaired. I recognize that 9/11 is the worst thing to ever happen to Americans, but it's a blip beside two world wars where 50,000 dead in a day was not considered overkill, and where the Blitz, Dresden, Hamburg, Hiroshima and Nagasaki (and this is regardless of who was wrong, right, or merely in the way at the time) perpetrated civilian deaths on an epic scale.
I daresay there are a few thousand Vietnamese who would view America's napalming of villages, strafing of rice paddy workers and deforestation programmes as equally appalling pieces of work. When it comes to targetting and killing civilians, I don't make a distinction between formally-declared wars between countries and various movements against certain countries, whether they are called guerillas, insurgents, terrorists, or resistance fighters.
There's also the danger of picking at the 9/11 scabs again and again so that they WON'T heal, and of trundling out the event for annual display and dissection as if no other country could possibly bear witness to far, far worse.
I daresay there are a few thousand Vietnamese who would view America's napalming of villages, strafing of rice paddy workers and deforestation programmes as equally appalling pieces of work. When it comes to targetting and killing civilians, I don't make a distinction between formally-declared wars between countries and various movements against certain countries, whether they are called guerillas, insurgents, terrorists, or resistance fighters.
There's also the danger of picking at the 9/11 scabs again and again so that they WON'T heal, and of trundling out the event for annual display and dissection as if no other country could possibly bear witness to far, far worse.
Well I have to say, my biggest concern is how the media merry go round is perceived among young and impressionable muslim youth. Is there not a danger that it inadvertantly acts as a recruiting sergeant?. This docudrama running at the moment is one such example, that taken from a certain perspective glamourises AQ. The makers might argue that it shows some of perpertrators getting captured and killed, but I some how doubt that for a generation brought up on such images this alone acts as a deterent. My best guess is, that it is more likely to appeal to a sense of adventure, vengence and duty, especially as it ultimately showcases an event that demonstrates that fighting back is possible? The West have used war films afterall as a way of trying to boost recruitment.
In terms of numbers, what is often overlooked, is that it was also the worst single terrorist loss of life for the UK. I'm assuming the same would be true for many other countries who haven't been subjected to a history of terrorism. I often felt that the Bush administration missed a trick here in portraying it as a global attack, and turned it into an exclusive American disaster instead (I hesitate about using the word disaster incidentally, as for me it has slightly different connurtations and I'm not sure how applicable it is in this instance). I've wondered a few times how many more countries he might have been able to take along with him, if he'd been prepared to acknowledge other nationalities? Though I suspect he wasn't bothered, as ultimately how many actually had the military resources to respond, and would their involvement have been of any tangible significance set along side that of the US.
I note the point Kriz, as only today an independent report puts the loss of civilian life since 9/11 at 70,000 globally. Although yet to reach the dizzy heights of recent conflicts C20th, it's getting there and shows little sign of abating
In terms of numbers, what is often overlooked, is that it was also the worst single terrorist loss of life for the UK. I'm assuming the same would be true for many other countries who haven't been subjected to a history of terrorism. I often felt that the Bush administration missed a trick here in portraying it as a global attack, and turned it into an exclusive American disaster instead (I hesitate about using the word disaster incidentally, as for me it has slightly different connurtations and I'm not sure how applicable it is in this instance). I've wondered a few times how many more countries he might have been able to take along with him, if he'd been prepared to acknowledge other nationalities? Though I suspect he wasn't bothered, as ultimately how many actually had the military resources to respond, and would their involvement have been of any tangible significance set along side that of the US.
I note the point Kriz, as only today an independent report puts the loss of civilian life since 9/11 at 70,000 globally. Although yet to reach the dizzy heights of recent conflicts C20th, it's getting there and shows little sign of abating
You make a valid point about free advertising for the cause, Warbs. Not only are there swathes of Muslim youth brought up on such 'images', they're all too real in the everyday. Imagine that on any day, your family might be thrown out of their homes, your father taken away for 'questioning' and returned battered and bruised days later, or perhaps not for years.
Imagine that you walk out of your humble house to go to school, and see the bloody remnants of some of your school friends draped over vehicles and the street - these are the 'images' which thousands of young people have been treated to since the 1970s in not just conflict with Israel, the Gulf war, the invasion of Iraq and its current internal conflict, and most recently and shockingly in Lebanon. It's hardly surprising if life is seen by many young Muslims as valued little and martyrdom (and an instant entry to Heaven) its brief purpose.
The path to 9/11, the Nairobi bombings, the Saudi bombings and regular gun battles (so unreported by the Western media), the Bali bombings, the London bombings, the Sharm-el-Sheikh attacks and all those yet to come (the Gulf now being threatened) was set in 1967.
Imagine that you walk out of your humble house to go to school, and see the bloody remnants of some of your school friends draped over vehicles and the street - these are the 'images' which thousands of young people have been treated to since the 1970s in not just conflict with Israel, the Gulf war, the invasion of Iraq and its current internal conflict, and most recently and shockingly in Lebanon. It's hardly surprising if life is seen by many young Muslims as valued little and martyrdom (and an instant entry to Heaven) its brief purpose.
The path to 9/11, the Nairobi bombings, the Saudi bombings and regular gun battles (so unreported by the Western media), the Bali bombings, the London bombings, the Sharm-el-Sheikh attacks and all those yet to come (the Gulf now being threatened) was set in 1967.
I write this from an internet cafe in Lower Manhatten quite close to Ground Zero. If you think there is saturation there, well you can imagine. My only conclusion is that folk here still havn't a clue what happened or how to deal with it.
Not surprising, given the insularity of most Americans from state to state, let alone The Rest of the World, AC. But inexcusable for their media, intelligence services, and politicians to obfuscate - Jimmy Carter's article (c/o BrianH) is all they need to know, and all they needed to have supported to have prevented this and future atrocities. Atrocity begets atrocity, on it goes. It's not even a question of sitting down with Al-Queda leaders, any more than the British sat down with EOKA's or the IRA's. It's a question of putting right the immense wrong done wittingly to a nation of people, no matter how many elections might go poorly funded by Israel's sympathisers in the USA. "No guts - no glory" - sadly, still no guts to address the nub of the continuing Middle East impasse.
Apart from drowning in public overgrief, AC, I hope you're having an interesting time.
Apart from drowning in public overgrief, AC, I hope you're having an interesting time.
I was sat in the weighing room at Leicester waiting for my ride in the last and watching this on tv. All the boys and I were gripped and only turned over to watch the races just as they were jumping out the stalls. I remember all this so clearly as Richard Hills came rushing in after one ride shouting "turn the tv over something bad has happened." (I thought he had given one a good ride :lol: ) Only to see live footage of the events of that day. It was really sad and made me realise how you never know when its all over. My one stand out image was of the people jumping out of the buildings.
BrianH
At the Start
I was doing someting on the PC and my son, who is a journalist, phoned to say put the television on - NOW. I saw the second plane hit and was glued to the screen moving around between Sky, who took the Fox coverage, CNN and the BBC.
The previous year when in New York we had had dinner at the Windows On The World restaurant on the 107th floor of the north tower, and had booked again foe when we were over for the 2001 Breeders' Cup at Belmont.
The current Mrs H came in with the shopping and I was explaining what was going on. She said that she hoped that they would be able to get it all repaired in the six or seven weeks we had left before our booking. I started to explain to her gently - and then the south tower collapsed.
View from Windows On The World
The previous year when in New York we had had dinner at the Windows On The World restaurant on the 107th floor of the north tower, and had booked again foe when we were over for the 2001 Breeders' Cup at Belmont.
The current Mrs H came in with the shopping and I was explaining what was going on. She said that she hoped that they would be able to get it all repaired in the six or seven weeks we had left before our booking. I started to explain to her gently - and then the south tower collapsed.
View from Windows On The World
I was at Stansted Airport returning from a wedding. We just had time to see the second plane crashing when we were called in. I didn't realise at the time it was a second plane as I couldn't hear the audio, I thought they had found footage of the first one crashing. I never got on a plane so quickly in my life. Obviously the crew suspected the decision to shut the airport down was imminent and they wanted to get onto the runway asap.
Flagship uberalles
Journeyman
I was playing an online game against some friends from the US when the first plane hit. A few of them had noticed the breaking news and advised me to switch the news on as something bad had happened. Just as I turned the TV on to CNN, a plane flashed across the screen and hit the second tower.
Impossible to forget the images of the day, it's possibly the only time the news has rendered me speechless with sheer shock. It was so like watching a disaster movie that it didn't initially hit you that what you were seeing was actually real.
Impossible to forget the images of the day, it's possibly the only time the news has rendered me speechless with sheer shock. It was so like watching a disaster movie that it didn't initially hit you that what you were seeing was actually real.
simmo
Senior Jockey
I was working at the time when we got word to turn the tv over from our usual diet of MTfuckingV (about 13:10 BST as I recall). I spent the rest of the afternoon watching the tv and assuring the real workers that I would inform them if anything interesting happened and that they could get on with their bloody work in the meantime.
In the evening my other half and I went to the pub and continued our viewing pleasure, comforted by that particular warm glow which is only provided by alcohol.
I am fairly certain that the kebab was up to it's usual high standards, but the glow was somewhat muted as I recall.
In the evening my other half and I went to the pub and continued our viewing pleasure, comforted by that particular warm glow which is only provided by alcohol.
I am fairly certain that the kebab was up to it's usual high standards, but the glow was somewhat muted as I recall.
G
Griffin
Guest
I was having lunch at my parents house when the newsflash came on the telly. I was nine months pregnant with Emily and for the first time in a long time I wasn't wishing her out. I didn't want her to be born on such a dreadful day. It was an odd feeling but I wanted her to stay where she was inside of me where it was safe.
BrianH
At the Start
The first plane hit at about 2.45 pm BST (8.45 am ET)
Shadow Leader
At the Start
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I was managing a bookies then (I had a shop full at the time) - I received a phonecall fairly early on from another manager telling me to turn the TV over. I had another screen below the main SIS one in the shop and that was switched to Sky News - no-one was taking any notice of the racing whatsoever and was watching as the second plane hit. There was a lot of confusion early on as to what was really happening I remember.
simmo
Senior Jockey
The first plane hit at about 2.45 pm BST (8.45 am ET) [/b][/quote]
I guess I must be full of shit then!
simmo
Senior Jockey
Having investigated further I'm not that full of shit. New York was also on daylight saving at the time making the crashes at 13:46 and 14:02 respectively (BST).Originally posted by simmo@Sep 11 2006, 02:54 PM
I guess I must be full of shit then!
Given that we had been watching the tv for between 5-10 minutes before the second plane went in I will therefore revise my timing to about 13:54:22 (BST). (Although I still thought it was earlier, and that there was longer between the crashes - could be something in that...).
I was at home that day on a weeks holiday having just been to Ny a couple of weeks before. And my first visit since then was 10 days ago working in an office overlooking ground zero
Well, thats that
But lets get away from this idea that americas middle eastern policies were responsible for this vile act
They had attacked and attacked before and their creed has nothing to do with sympathy for the Palestinians (was barely mentioned by BL until it seemed convenient to do so) or anything else. It is based on a warped idealogy which is built on hate...pure and simple
One look at the way the taliban treated its own people gives you a pretty clear idea that this strand of islam is fundamentally a deeply unhappy belief.
Well, thats that
But lets get away from this idea that americas middle eastern policies were responsible for this vile act
They had attacked and attacked before and their creed has nothing to do with sympathy for the Palestinians (was barely mentioned by BL until it seemed convenient to do so) or anything else. It is based on a warped idealogy which is built on hate...pure and simple
One look at the way the taliban treated its own people gives you a pretty clear idea that this strand of islam is fundamentally a deeply unhappy belief.
Anyone watching Sleeper Cell?
Watched the first episode last night - was in two minds whether or not to bother with it as I assumed it would be pretty biased - and still haven't made my mind up about it but it's weirdly believable.
PS - if you've watched later episodes, please don't use this thread as a spoiler!
Watched the first episode last night - was in two minds whether or not to bother with it as I assumed it would be pretty biased - and still haven't made my mind up about it but it's weirdly believable.
PS - if you've watched later episodes, please don't use this thread as a spoiler!
BrianH
At the Start
No, I was! :lol:
BrianH
At the Start
But it's the foreign policy of America and its total support for Israel, right or wrong, that is the greatest recruiting aid for the mad men who want to do harm to the west.