Training methods etc

Desert Orchid

Desert Orchid

Senior Jockey
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Aug 2, 2005
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The Plumpton novice chase thread made me wonder about training methods etc.

I'd be pretty sure plenty other forumites will have vast knowledge in comparison to anything I might have about training methods and race tactics etc since I've never set foot in a racing yard and am now a very infrequent racecourse visitor.

But the Master Dino stuff set me thinking.

I was a big fan of Jair Du Cochet and lucky enough to latch on to him before his ability became obvious. I recall him going off fast and keeping going, not unlike the way Pipe-Scu used to do it.

Then there was the Dickinsons reportedly running their horses up steep hills to get them super-fit.

Swimming, deep sand gallops etc with other trainers.

I'm wondering - maybe the older people (if there are any left) will know - are horses fitter and faster than they were?

The Arkle argument will no doubt surface at some point but maybe we should leave it out for the time being.

Crisp's pace in enabling Red Rum to take something like 30 seconds off the course record in the National. Then Mr Frisk taking that record apart. As far as I know nothing has got near his time since then although they're manufacturing softer ground nowadays. So does that counter any argument about races being faster run (tactically) nowadays?

These are things just popping into my head at random so they'll come across as more disjointed than usual but are races taking more out of horses nowadays because in general they are faster run? And yet, as a student of times I reckon 90% of most midweek races are pretty slow.
 
Henrietta Knight was signing copies of her new book at The Open at Cheltenham in November, it is called The Jumping Game and each chapter (there are 27) is about a different trainer's background and their training methods. Fascinating stuff.
 
Hopefully she’ll be doing the same at the Festival Trials meeting. Got her to sign a couple of copies of her book on Best Mate there a few years ago


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Used to love going to her open days at West Lockinge in the Best Mate era and meeting Terry, Hen and Jim Lewis, always willing to chat.
 
Something else I meant to mention in the opening post is whether it's true that in the big Saturday and festival handicaps some horses are taken out of their comfort zone so under-perform. Or are they really under-performing or is it just a case that their limitations are exposed; that they can win good races run at a 'normal' pace but once something really goes at it up front some others just can't hack it.

A good recent example would be Beware The Bear on NYD at Cheltenham. Top-weight (because he was the best horse in the race), blasts off in front and has almost everything in trouble with a circuit to go. Would he have won if he'd been held up [as usual] off a less forceful gallop? Who knows. I think he may have worn headgear for the first time that day and maybe that made a difference.
 
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When I first took an interest in jump racing in the early 80’s backing top class horses on their first run of the season was risky -very few horses seemed to be ready for their seasonal debut.Martin Pipe changed the game forever in terms of fitness.
 
Not to hijack the thread, but one thing that always amazes me is the switching of targets late in the day.

Would you train a horse differently if targetting a 2m 5f race (Ryanair) vs a gold cup.

I would imagine a human athlete would train differently for a race which is 20% longer or shorter

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littlelad said:
Not to hijack the thread, but one thing that always amazes me is the switching of targets late in the day.

Would you train a horse differently if targetting a 2m 5f race (Ryanair) vs a gold cup.


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No. You might choose different prep races but, then again, you might not.
 
Big races with bigger fields, greater pace and less room suits some horses but not others.
Some horses are claustophobic, needing light and space to perform ; others love the hustle and bustle of tight fields, little daylight and running through gaps.
When Top Cees won Pertemps Hurdle at Festival Lynda Ramsden refused interviews with C 4 but Micky Fenton gave RTE a wonderful interview.
He stressed how the horse stuck to the inside rail, loved running through gaps as they opened and closed and went forward when others would hesitate.
Shows how he won 2 Chester Cups .
Nick Morden used stress how some horses needed fields of ten runners or less to perform (St Nicholas Abbey ) while others had no such issues.
Joe Mercer's interview on Sky Sports Racing gives insight as to how Major Hern and Henry Cecil differed in training , worth a listen.
 
LUKE said:
When I first took an interest in jump racing in the early 80’s backing top class horses on their first run of the season was risky -very few horses seemed to be ready for their seasonal debut.Martin Pipe changed the game forever in terms of fitness.
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Pipe was very adept at getting a win with his introduction of interval training but often to the detriment of longevity.

Dan Skelton runs a similar modern day operation.
 
One of the first things I noticed when I started doing time ratings over jumps (mid-late 1980s) was that a Pipe-Scu (could be Romanian :)) runner would win in a very fast time, come out a week or two later, end up very heavily backed and get beat. At the time I thought there had to be a gambling reason for it but if you consider the bounce theory then it makes perfect sense. Invariably those horses came out again within a couple of weeks and won again in a very fast time. It was only when I read about the bounce that it occurred to me that was probably what was happening but it's still a surprise a pioneer like Pipe couldn't work out what was happening.
 
redundant pal said:
Pipe was very adept at getting a win with his introduction of interval training but often to the detriment of longevity.

Dan Skelton runs a similar modern day operation.
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How many modern trainers have a reputation for getting their horses to keep going year after year? I can't think of many.

Do French-breds still have a reputation for not lasting?
 
To paraphrase our "Who Wants to be a Millionaire Host "; here's what I think !

All horses have a certain mileage.
Some can last the pace over many seasons; more do it all in one or two.

I first witnessed the Pipe phenomenon racing Feb and march 1989 when going to Sandown to see Dessie and Haydock for Southern Minstrel a month later.
the Pipe horses were tall ,leggy,narrow greyhound like that were fit as fleas but had no bone or substance and ran accordingly, running up sequences in Novice hurdles but not training on for the most part. Remember the Panorama special /hatchet job on horse wastage at that time ?

Consider L'Escargot; a dream horse as described by one of great posters when first meeting them at GWD 2011 or 2012, not that he named l'Escargot as such.
Won his Bumper 1967, won Supreme Novice Hurdle 1968, second fav for Champion Hurdle 69, won Gold Cup 70,71 Grand National 75 ,and raced Cheltenham Festival 1968 to 75, US chaser of the year 1969 to boot, winning a total of 14 races.( no win from 1972 to 1975)
Had Pipe trained him he would have won 14 races in one or two seasons, but not necessarily Gold Cup or Grand National.

Douvan struck me as a Pipe type tall,narrow ( more bone to be fair )and fit as a flea when I first saw him at Cheltenham up close that early Tuesday morning 2015.
As things stand he has won 14 races but will he ever get back to that level of greatness ?

Trainers who train horses to last no longer do business; the Raymond Guest/ Lord Vestey type of owner a thing of history.
Trevor Hemmings is the last of the major owners to think Aintree National / longevity when looking at a horse but at 80 I imagine long term is not quite as long as it once was.( Time does that to folk )
One size does not fit all for horses or for the people who own/train/ride/punt on them.

Think of the NH sires who were the business in years of yore; Cottage whose stock were 9 before they were any good: Vulgan stock ditto.
Wrekin Rambler died early 1970 and his replacement Deep Run, a champion Irish two year old who did not train on, went over hurdles to sweeten him up was retired to cover WR's mares and life as we know it changed forever.
His stock won Bumpers first time out, won over hurdles and fences and 100+ mare books became the norm and speed the main ingredient ; the thought of Fame And Glory covering NH mares so early in his stud career would never have happened.

Brown Lad did not see a racecourse until he was 7, carried 12-2 to win his third Irish National at 12 and started joint fav for 79 Gold Cup at 13.
Imagine that happening now ?
Monkerhostin and his half brother Eric's Charm both won 12 races , both won at 13 and were French bred.
Longevity is inheritable but how many breeders/ buyers/pundits look for it or celebrate it ?

Better one day as a lion seems to be the motto.
Given the wastage through injuries, infections , ulcers and impatience of all concerned fewer horses get the chance to prove themselves long term as Nicky, Willie and Gordon among others have as many horses waiting in feeder yards to enter the system as they have active main yard horses.
In olden times the top trainers had 30 to 50 horses, now add a nought .
1979 Sean Graham annual had a picture of Edward O'Grady's 7 Cheltenham hopes; 7 in one stable WOW !!!
40 years later it all seems pretty tame.

Look at the veterans chases or old stagers on the main stage and the same trainers have the most runners.

My nutritionist friend developed and markets oat balancer and roasted flax seed; his calling card is that in the last 60 years only two horses have won 3 Cheltenham Gold Cups ; both were fed oats , hay , supplements and Guinness.
Henrietta's training regime went south when modernising her feed regime.
No feed company can match that record yet despite scientific progress, evaluation and what have you.
Not saying he is right but watching Silviniaco Conti 's ulcers stopping him in 2 Gold Cups and WPM still to win one makes you think.
In the old days the horse feeder was the most important person in a trainer's yard, now the feed manufacturers have demystified it so anyone can feed , but can they ? Ulcers can be treated with gastrogard but would it not be better prevent them ?

Re training; there is no right way to train racehorses but plenty of wrong ways !

That is what I know, for what it is worth.
 
I do not post on here often but scan through the forum a lot.

I think a lot of people miss key points in training racehorses.

Patience doesn’t cost a thing, but it is seldom used! Is first and foremost and any trainer that is a “horseman” would abide by this day in day out but as with a lot of things in society they don’t. A lot of modern trainers are nothing more then used car salesmen that know how to sell themselves, they’ve been trained from paper and we all know the difference between theory and practice. Hell most trainers don’t even go to work, they are merely a name above a public house and get staff to manage it for them whilst they bask in the glory at the big meetings.
You wouldn’t take marraige counselling advice from a 25 year old who’s never been married so why send you expensive two year old to a “trainer” who’s only dealt with older staying types?
This new generation of trainers spend vast amounts on their businesses so they have to have a full house to keep the bankers at bay hence why a lot of them cannot afford pay rises for staff - which are well overdue!

Older private trainers lived on their stakes money therefore every action had a reaction from feed, to horses for courses to ground to tactics therefore they had to be patient. Don’t get me wrong modern prizemoney in England and Ireland is diabolical!

Also you have to bear in mind and not many people would pen this but not all trainers in the past were as clean as we are led to believe! Anabolic Steroids were frequently used not to mention Raceday treatments, broncilators, milkshaking, jiggers etc etc don’t fool yourself everything where there is large money to be made there’s people really looking for an edge. The more genuine horsemen of today are probably better then those in the past as they are much more heavily scrutinised for drugs so they have to race cleaner and purer than the last generation. Vets are not training horse as much as they used to!

I’ve been around the world and seen a lot of different breeding practices and more to the point seen loads of training methods - what is certain, is the better horses are born with pure natural talent and could have done just as well with another trainer in said country. Won as many races? Maybe not. Won more? Could have, we’ll never know. In my opinion you do not need to be a rocket scenitist to get a horse fit, it’s solving the equations, working with the extended team the feedman, farrier, the vet, the rider and delagating the workload that counts.

Trainers need to go back to KISS Keep It Simple Stupid, less crap talk and too many modern tech fads will lead to less overheads, less variables and they can set benchmarks that they can refer to therefore uncloud their vision win more races and reap more prozemony in ratio to their costs. This is key - so that they can keep their accountant happy.

Basically to sum up most modern trainers should come with a Government Health Warning because all they will do is cause you stress and anxiety over their poor decisions and high monthly bills.
 
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Desert Orchid said:
One of the first things I noticed when I started doing time ratings over jumps (mid-late 1980s) was that a Pipe-Scu (could be Romanian :)) runner would win in a very fast time, come out a week or two later, end up very heavily backed and get beat. At the time I thought there had to be a gambling reason for it but if you consider the bounce theory then it makes perfect sense. Invariably those horses came out again within a couple of weeks and won again in a very fast time. It was only when I read about the bounce that it occurred to me that was probably what was happening but it's still a surprise a pioneer like Pipe couldn't work out what was happening.
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Might have been the bounce.

Or maybe they only got the extra red blood cells from the centrifuge when the stable money was down...


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Well said edgt.

Carvills Hill trained in Ireland vs Carvills Hill trained by Pipe to illustrate your point.

You only have to watch the '89 Irish Gold Cup and compare it to '92 to see how much leaner he is second time around.

But similar to your point re L'Escargot the horse wouldn't have started even money for a Gold Cup if Pipe had trained him from the start, rather than the slow and steady approach of his previous handler.
 
redundant pal said:
Well said edgt.

Carvills Hill trained in Ireland vs Carvills Hill trained by Pipe to illustrate your point.

You only have to watch the '89 Irish Gold Cup and compare it to '92 to see how much leaner he is second time around.

But similar to your point re L'Escargot the horse wouldn't have started even money for a Gold Cup if Pipe had trained him from the start, rather than the slow and steady approach of his previous handler.
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I posted before how Carvills Hill when let off to gallop down to start of his Scalp / Deloitte Novice Hurdle win his lad Nicky Connors was surrounded by the other lads whose charges had been released and asked how good the horse was, what Cheltenham Novice the horse was running in etc ; this before the race was run. My buddy Paddy and I were gobsmacked by such behaviour before the race but understood full well after the race what the fuss was about.
He did not go to The Festival that year but was put away.
Similarly Ballinacurra Lad went to Pipe's after his novice Chase season, spent the Autumn running in competitive two mile/ two and a half mile handicaps chases he found too quick ( he must have shown speed at Pipe's) before returning to John Crowley (his original trainer) to win Benson and Hedges Chase carrying top weight over 3 miles at Fairyhouse. Whether the change in scenery/ training regime didn't suit him or not i have no idea.
I am by no means slagging off someone who revolutionised racing/training as we knew it but horses differ, people differ, that's all.
 
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CountryLife said:
You wouldn’t take marraige counselling advice from a 25 year old who’s never been married so why send you expensive two year old to a “trainer” who’s only dealt with older staying types?
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Nor would I take marriage counselling from anyone who's been married three or four times. They're clearly not good at it either :lol:
 
The immediate mischievous thought that went through my head was that Paul Nicholls isn't a flat trainer, and then I stopped and thought about it and I was wrong on both counts...................
 
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