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[montyracing2]

Given that many Scots may want independence, but retain UK status in many ways. I would love to see Cameron walk away from Europe and then see what Mr Sleezy Salmond will do.

Just to emphasise, I have no great feelings for membership or otherwise of the Euro zone but there appears so many agendas that the real issues of 'free trade' and growing richer together seem lost in the noise.

MR2

 

[trudij]

I think they should have indipendance if thats what they want - but total independance.Dont come running back to England (or wales or NI !!!) when it suits them....

 

[simmo]

Given that many Scots may want independence, but retain UK status in many ways. I would love to see Cameron walk away from Europe and then see what Mr Sleezy Salmond will do.

Can you explain what this means Monty? What does the UK's position on Europe have to do with Scottish independence? If Scotland does choose to become independent (and to be clear - I am undecided on how to vote as yet) it will need to apply for membership of the EU like any other nation (as far as I know - that could just be Labour/Tory propaganda).

Can you also confirm what is sleazy about Alex Salmond. I hate the effect his policies are having on the countryside where I live and I am diametrically opposed to his plans for minimum pricing on alcohol, but I haven't heard any suggestions that he is sleazy. Can you elaborate?

 

[montyracing2]

Sorry, Simmo, just seen you question.
Here is my rushed response. (Let me make it clear, I have never seen Scotland, Wales, or northern Ireland as anything else except as a valuable part of the UK, and this referendum is a costly waste of time whatever the outcome. Probably, more costly for Scotland if they go independent, it will simply become a backwater in a world of rising inflation, runs on currencies, shortages of resources etc)

But to Mr Salmond:

Take his interview this morning on Andrew Mar.

On the Eurozone - he refuses to answer any question directly but makes an assumption and then declares it as fact i.e. the UK is part of the Eurozone (except for the banking bit) so Mr Salmond says it will be a natural transition to be a Euro member. The fact is, it will not! Would Scotland enjoy or afford contributing to the Euro budget or to the bail-out funds.

He says he has many Euro supporters, but are they simply the ones ‘hacked off’ by the UK’s rightful stance on certain issues. He would be unwise to assume their continuing support when Scotland becomes independent and pretty irrelevant to the Euro economy.

On the Euro, Mr Salmond assumes he can adopt the Pound and in doing so wriggle out of the base condition to join the Eurozone that is to adopt the Euro.

Hence, my humour, if Cameron takes the UK out first where will that leave MR Salmond's plans.

Sleazy - I find his answers to questions baseless, he skews the facts to fit his argument. Reference his interview with Andrew Neil.

Sleazy: The NATO question, to be in NATO but refuse the weaponry, and then to compare Scotland’s position with that of Norway's. He is 'wrong' but once again makes an assumption and declares it as fact.

Sleazy: the finding of £2.3 billion spare cash by comparing percentages of different numbers - that is at best inaccurate and at worst fraudulent. Buying votes with numpty numbers.

Sleazy: adoption of Pound rather than Euro because 'things have changed.' The truth, Mr Salmond, is the Scots would never accept it.

Sleazy: if the Scots want independence then Mr Salmond needs to go the whole hog i.e. Euro, Defence, Finance. He knows if he does he's 'toast.' So, he answers every question by claiming assumptions as truths and if that doesn't work lays the blame at Westminster.

Simmo, you must vote as you see fit but I find Mr Salmond a very slippery character and not one to be trusted.

MR2

 

[simmo]

Just to play devils advocate - as I say I have not made my mind up yet.

Would Scotland enjoy or afford contributing to the Euro budget or to the bail-out funds.

Probably about as much as they have enjoyed contributing to the UK budget or the bail out of UK banks.

He would be unwise to assume their continuing support when Scotland becomes independent and pretty irrelevant to the Euro economy.

There is a small debate up here about the future of the SNP if independence is achieved in that it's primary purpose would have been achieved. He would be unwise to assume the continuing support of anyone after that event.

On the Euro, Mr Salmond assumes he can adopt the Pound and in doing so wriggle out of the base condition to join the Eurozone that is to adopt the Euro.

The Pound is the UK's currency. Scotland is part of the UK. The pound is Scotlands currency. The Bank of England is not the only bank which prints sterling notes. No assumptions - that ones a fact.

The NATO question, to be in NATO but refuse the weaponry, and then to compare Scotland’s position with that of Norway's. He is 'wrong' but once again makes an assumption and declares it as fact.

He hasn't made an assumption and declared it as fact. He has declared the position of the SNP. It is doubtful whether anyone else (i.e. the US or UK) would stand for it, but at least they have made their stance clear to people.

adoption of Pound rather than Euro because 'things have changed.' The truth, Mr Salmond, is the Scots would never accept it.

And why wouldn't Scots accept it? That'll be because things have changed.........

if the Scots want independence then Mr Salmond needs to go the whole hog i.e. Euro, Defence, Finance.

If there is a means of avoiding the Euro then it would seem to make sense at this time to do so - the suggestion that not doing so is somehow cheating or misleading people is just wrong. Again - they have made their stance on defence clear for people to see and make their own minds up about.

I have no idea what the £2.3bn reference was so can't throw something into the pot for that.

 

[Sheikh]

'Backwater's tend to do very well when the European economy is Healthy or should I say The German and French economy, although I don't see why Scotland would have to settle for being a 'backwater'. I believe Scottish waters are full of oil, no ?

 

[montyracing2]

I might return to the above comments later but just to take the issue of Scottish Oil - King Salmond has never mentioned 'our oil' in live discussion. I wonder why? He knows he will have to negotiate on that and given the history of 'oil' ownership he will lose.

The other main oil owner (Norway) does it's best not to be part of the Eurozone, I wonder why?

The only budgetary advantage he claims (falsely) is % budget less % expenditure i.e. 2.3 Billion. One is not the same as the other.

Finally, as King Salmond infers, but once again never promises, we will be a rich independent Scotland. Rich countries pay more into Brussels, and as federalism needs to grow in Europe, what chance of Scotland negotiating a special deal - None!

So, the referendum question should be ... Is it your wish to leave the Uk federation and join the Euro federation?

I'm pretty sure which one has a sustainable history and which one is trying to get one!

Your vote - Simmo, but if Salmond wants independence then that is what it should be - TOTAL, Euro included

MR2

 

[Grasshopper]

I am largely with monty on this matter.

Ignoring everything else that's wrong with Independence, there is zero financial security for an independent Scotland. Two of the largest contributors to the Scottish economy in the last 20 years (RBS and BOS) have turned out to be frauds. Lest we forget, the two ropiest institutions in UK Banking were Scottish companies. Would an independent Scotland have been able to finance a bailout of either?

No chance.

Chasing an ephemeral notion like independence, in the midst of the direst economic outlook in a century, strikes me as somewhat idiotic. I mean? To what end? Just so that all us Jocks can pat each other on the back; congratulating each other that we're finally free of the English yoke?

Then what?

Then what is that we inherit an already toiling economy, with no obvious means of helping it recover. Indeed, depending on the depth of dislocation from 'English' monetary policy,mew may find it worsens, as borrowing costs for 'Scotland' would surely rise.

Salmond won't publish numbers because he knows they don't stack-up - unless you believe that Westminster will pop a great big ribbon on the deal (my arse they will). Unfortunately, he talks a good game; though all things are relative, and the Great Man hardly faces much in the way of credible opposition amongst the pea-brains and grotesques that pass for MSP's.

Couple this with a sizeable-enough chunk of the population thinking that they want it (for bizarre notions of national 'pride') and I fear we may ultimately choose to cross the river......watching Fat Alex and his cackling urchin, Sturgeon, burning the bridge down at the back of us.

 

[montyracing2]

I love considering 'what might happen' so, and I know its a daft question, but should an individual Scot wish to stay 'English' - for want of a better term, can they?

Might seem daft but on independence day, will it be the case that anyone residing in Scotland becomes Scottish whether they were born in Blackpool or Glasgow.

This might be serious issue for Non-Scots living in those gorgeous Highlands.

Could I perhaps have dual nationality, perhaps paying tax in neither country?



But, If that is the case, I want a voting slip too - MR2

 

[simmo]

Lest we forget, the two ropiest institutions in UK Banking were Scottish companies.

I would differ on that score. Both are Scottish in name only. Indeed - the vast majority of the follies committed by both were done in England by Englishfolk. It is an irrelevance to the independence question - the situation would almost certainly not have been the same had the companies come from an independent Scotland.

 

[Bar the Bull]

Yeah, because being an independent country in northwestern Europe equates to a stable and trustworthy banking system.

Ahem.

 

[Sheikh]

a stable and trustworthy banking system.

Does such a thing exist these days ? I think not.

 

[montyracing2]

Without wishing to raise political emotions further, I was interested to hear Andrew Neil interview with an SNP rep about an independent Scotland's right to Euro membership today.

It was that Salmond/Neil interview earlier in the year that made me re-consider Alex Salmonds image of honesty. Prior to that I was comfortable with his position on independence. I felt he had suddenly become very evasive, especially on Euro matters - a key element in my view.

Alex Salmond 'everything is consistent with our legal advice'. What he meant was that he had made assumptions put them into SNP documents and then purported it was consistent with legal advice because all SNP documents are consistent with legal advice.

This is sharp/sleazy practice.

My juices tell me that this will not be the last 'independence' position that will unravel.


MR2

 

[Grasshopper]

For an exercise in evation, look no further than Sturgeon's performance on Newsnight Scotland yesterday.

Unfortunately - for her, at least - she was up against a particularly irascible Gordon Brewer, who only just managed to stop himself from telling her to stop talking shite, before sending her on her way with a hoof up the arse.

I refer again to the desperate quality of the MSP community. Brewer had her on toast last night; yet she runs rings round almost all of her opponents in the Scottish Parliament.

I would agree that further "independence positions" may unravel, save for the fact that I don't think there is any other "position" beyond their tunnel-visioned desire for separacy. Their actual political position is constantly shifting, and their over-riding philosophical outlook in terms of taxation is loosely-based on the kind of medium-rare leftism that has been thoroughly discredited over the last 5 years.

 

[Relkeel]

When do the English get a referendum to decide whether to kick those incoherent, skirt-wearing, deep-fried-Mars-bar-munching alcoholics out of the UK?

 

[Euronymous]

Apart from the skirt wearing that description fits the Geordies as well any Jock.

 

[Relkeel]

I don't know any Geordies who eat deep-fried Mars bars.

 

[bigeeps]

As a Scot living in the North East of England my first sighting of a Deep Fried Mars Bar was in a chip shop in North Shields

 

[simmo]

It's a well known fact that Geordies are Scotsmen with their heads kicked in.

 

[montyracing2]

SNP say they will keep Faslane as the centre for a Scottish Navel Force and so any fear of job losses is false.

How many Scots does it take to build a flotiila of corrachs.


MR2