Victor Chandler Chase Upgraded

Harbinger

Harbinger

At the Start
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
Messages
11,282
It's to be run as a Grade 1 conditions race from next year. No more huge weight-carrying performances as managed by the likes of Azertyuiop and Well Chief in recent years. Was it necessary to change it?
 
Not when its so close to the Game Spirit Chase no,

you will now end up with a 4 runner race at each venue. If it was to be upgraded from handicap status they as well have scrapped it all together because Sandown run a competitve handicap over 2m just a week or so later.
 
It does make you wonder why they decided that no Grade 1 can be a handicap. When you consider how important the likes of the Hennessey and Grand National are to the history of the sport, it's strange that they're only Grade 3s and can only ever be Grade 2s at best. In terms of prestige, they tower over some of the Grade 1s.
 
The big handicaps are infinitely more deserving of Grade 1 status than numerous graded events which very small fields (usually including a few which are there to hunt around the back and pick up a bit of appearance money).

Not to mention those tin pot Irish Grade 1's that Beefy always used to win.
 
The grading of the race should reflect the quality of the field. I don't believe handicaps (eg a 90-115) in which the top weight is a good 10lbs shy of a G1 rating should merit a G1 tag.

We could really do with genuine G1 handicaps where the likes of George Washington would be asked to give 3lbs more than WFA to Cockney Rebel but it would need commensurate prize money (at least £300,000) and that ain't gonna happen while we still have bookies.

The Grand National presents us with an anomaly whereby the likes of Hedgehunter, normally a mid-160 horse, can get to race off a mark 10lbs lower.

Presumably the upgrading of the VC will mean an end to the Cheltenham bonus?
 
Originally posted by Phil Waters@Jun 28 2007, 02:57 PM
The Hennessey and Grand National should both be Grade 1 races.
Click to expand...
The Hennessay yes, still as a handicap of course. The National no, not with Amberleigh House and Red Marauder still fresh in the memory.
 
Originally posted by chrisbeekracing@Jun 28 2007, 02:32 PM
Not when its so close to the Game Spirit Chase no,

you will now end up with a 4 runner race at each venue. If it was to be upgraded from handicap status they as well have scrapped it all together because Sandown run a competitve handicap over 2m just a week or so later.
Click to expand...
Chris I don't understand what you're trying to say there - they have upgraded it from handicap status, and why should the race be scrapped?

Can't really agree with your comments re: the Game Spirit either; the races are a month apart and are run on very different tracks and each going a different way round. The Game Spirit has only attracted a handful of runners in recent years also anyway so it would hardly be a a new thing. More of a problem to the Game Spirit is its proximity to Cheltenham - a Grade One 2m chase at the beginning of January isn't a bad thing, IMO, and at one of the best tracks as well.

I can't for the life of me see what is so bad about raising the standard of racing? shrug:: If it were a Grade One race already and downgraded to a limited handicap there would be howls of derision about the standard of racing getting worse and being dumbed down, so why is it such a bad thing when a race is upgraded?
 
How many top class two milers are gonna take in the Tingle Creek, this and then the QM though? Could mean some poor fields by Grade 1 standards.
 
I have no idea how many would take it in but it would appeal to plenty of trainers of top 2 milers I'm sure as a potential campaign.
 
Originally posted by Shadow Leader+Jun 28 2007, 06:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Shadow Leader @ Jun 28 2007, 06:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-chrisbeekracing@Jun 28 2007, 02:32 PM
Not when its so close to the Game Spirit Chase no,

you will now end up with a 4 runner race at each venue. If it was to be upgraded from handicap status they as well have scrapped it all together because Sandown run a competitve handicap over 2m just a week or so later.
Click to expand...
Chris I don't understand what you're trying to say there - they have upgraded it from handicap status, and why should the race be scrapped?

Can't really agree with your comments re: the Game Spirit either; the races are a month apart and are run on very different tracks and each going a different way round. The Game Spirit has only attracted a handful of runners in recent years also anyway so it would hardly be a a new thing. More of a problem to the Game Spirit is its proximity to Cheltenham - a Grade One 2m chase at the beginning of January isn't a bad thing, IMO, and at one of the best tracks as well.

I can't for the life of me see what is so bad about raising the standard of racing? shrug:: If it were a Grade One race already and downgraded to a limited handicap there would be howls of derision about the standard of racing getting worse and being dumbed down, so why is it such a bad thing when a race is upgraded? [/b][/quote]
What i mean is the following Dom;

The Tingle Creek is a good starting point for any leading 2m chaser. I then see three races as next targets.

The 2m chase over Christmas at Kempton which has killed the Castleford down to a handicap.

The Victor Chandler which was a suitable option for the types of Oneway, River City and Dempsey (who may go well on and be placed at Cheltenham at best). By upgrading this race will detract the options of leading chasers who are more likely to have 3-4 runs max and leave the previously mentioned horses nowhere to go.

a week after this is a limited chase at Sandown which is already 0-165 so why did they create this race is it was practically used because the V C Chase has been postponed recently. Is this the new race for the Oneway's River City's and Dempsey's.

My question si simple really 3 races all for similar horses and the question raised why.

Also then mid Feb is the Game Spirit and i prefer this as a Cheltenham trial rather than the Vc or The Kempton race or the Sandown race. I cant see horses taken 2 of these options, may be one or two horses might but cant see of the 12 likley 2 mile chasers that more than 3 would use 2 of these races which makes me think there will be 4 or 5 runners in each race.

Keeping the Vc Chase as a handicap gave it an edge as it was a seperate target for horses than the Christmas race or the Game Spirit, i now see it as a race which will only take quality away from the horses. If i had a decnet 2m chaser i certainly wouldnt want to go vc, gs then CC. although i wouldnt want to run in Jan and then straight at Chelt. i would rather go Kempton on the 27th, then Game Spirit as pipeopener and then the CC.

I may be wrong and we all have opinion's but that is mine. I just think they are cutting up the options for hanidcappers that maybe aren't quite up to Cheltenham Champion Chase class.
 
Plenty of top Grade 1`s in America are handicaps, and whilst i`m unsure whether they`d work here, i think certain Group 2/3`s would certainly benefit - the recent Brigadier Gerard and Temple Stakes were beyond awful for example.
 
I am with Unc here.

Handicap is a dirty word.

Grade 1s are the pinnacle of racing, a chance for the best horse to win the best races.

Engineering the race to give the sub-standard a chance has no place.
 
Like Ramonti and Red Evie? I think making the odd race like the Queen Anne or the Lockinge or even the Juddmonte a limited Handicap wouldn`t hurt racing too much. Look at the Giant`s Causeway/Kalanisi dual in 2000, the third was 7lengths behind - the true champions would still win these contests, it`s not like listed class animals would be getting two stone.
 
Originally posted by Desert Orchid@Jun 28 2007, 03:27 PM
We could really do with genuine G1 handicaps where the likes of George Washington would be asked to give 3lbs more than WFA to Cockney Rebel
Click to expand...
The scene: Newmarket in September.

The race: A £500,000 G1 8f handicap featuring the first three from the English, French and Irish 2000/1000 Guineas, the SJP, the Queen Anne, the Lockinge and the Coronation Stks.

The European handicappers have got their heads together and given each horse a rating beyond 123 (fillies/mares 120) where appropriate. Any horse not getting 123 (fillies/mares 120) becomes inelegible. Top weight to carry 9-7. WFA to apply.

What rating (and therefore weight) would you allocate and what do other forumites reckon would win 'your' race?
 
Euro the top American Handicaps are effectively benefit races for the top horses. If a horse is allotted more than 120lbs or so then the trainer scratches him.

If we adopted that approach we'd have Kauto Star off 12 stone and then Bewleys Berry of 11-9 as the next in the weights and same with the flat.

Allowance weights and penalties for wins in each grade are the future, certainly not handicaps
 
It's the principle not the practice for me Euro. It's the sport.

Even as a punter; I rarely bet in handicaps as I like my perception of the best horse in the race to be carrying my money. Trying to back the horse that in my opinion the handicapper (whoever he may be) has chosen to penalise the least is a whole different ball game and not one that appeals very much.
 
Chris, you've missed my point entirely. I didn't understand your comment which I highlighted in bold; it made no sense whatsoever, hence my questioning of it.

Aside from that, your entire reasoning is based around what you would want to do if you just happened to have charge of a Grade One 2 miler. Pray tell, what on earth would you do with your mapped out campaign for your theoretical Champion Chaser if it didn't go left handed? Doggedly stick to your plan of never running it at Ascot in a Grade One 2 mile chase whilst running it down the field at Newbury and Cheltenham?
 
I don't think you can compare jump handicaps with flat handicaps. Handicaps are a far bigger part of the fabric of top class jump racing and some of the most memorable and enduring performances have been the likes of Arkle, Crisp, Desert Orchid, Suny Bay, Azertyuiop, Well Chief, Rooster Booster and Hedgehunter humping big weights around. Even those that lost often gained more in defeat than they did in victory.

Removing the handicap conditions from the VC Chase reduces the chance of seeing these kinds of performances. That's the shame.
 
Back
Top