Watchdog

Shadow Leader

At the Start
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Nov 9, 2003
Messages
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Did anyone see Watchdog last night? It featured a horse dealer from Doncaster who was so unbelievably crooked. He was flogging horses with little or no history & roughly halving their correct ages when selling them. Thankfully the Office of Fair Trading was investigating him & I'm guessing he'll be shut down very shortly. However, I was intrigued to see the 3 women that bought horses off him & were well & truly had over (at least one of the three horses had a vet recommend it was put down) as it really begs the question - why buy horses off this man in the first place? Ok, it appears that he does sell horses that by their description are dirt cheap, but on seeing the horses filmed a blind man could tell you that the horses weren't what he said they were. The first horse was allegedly 12 years old & on veterinary inspection turned out to be well into its 20s. For starters, the horse looked ancient - it's coat was rough, it had a massively dipped back & enormously long teeth. Why do people 1) buy horses when they clearly know very little about them (I promise you - these horses looked rough & far older than they were meant to be) 2) buy horses from a dealer in the first place (they are notoriously crooked & you should only buy from a dealer if you are very experienced & you have the horse fully vetted - you should also negotiate a trial period in case the horse is blatantly not what it was sold as) and 3) the most important by far - not get the horse vetted prior to purchase. I was utterly dumbstruck by the programme - I do have sympathy with those people taken in but they clearly didn't know what they were doing in the first place when buying the animals, hence getting bitten on the backside. Why do people act so stupidly over matters like this & risk large amounts of money like this?
 
Originally posted by Shadow Leader@Sep 7 2005, 07:11 PM
Thankfully the Office of Fair Trading was investigating him & I'm guessing he'll be shut down very shortly.
That won't make a lot of difference - in the past he has been bankrupted, imprisoned for fraud, barred from runing a business and traded under at least eight company names.
 
Of course, Markee....a fool & his money & all that....

Of course Brian, you're right - he was quoted as saying "don't worry, I'll just come back under another name". Here's the link to the story, btw Dodgy horse dealer
 
Why do people buy used cars that end up proving to have a dodgy history? Is buying horses any different? Rogue traders are in every walk of life. Often, they're feeding off the greed of people who believe they're buying a bargain. Would these same buyers buy a used car without taking a mechanic along?

Fools and their money indeed.
 
I've always taken a mechanic with me or commissioned an AA report.

If the money is coming out of one's own pocket then I reckon anyone who buys a brand new car has more money than sense.
 
A brand new car is worth on average 20-30% less the minute it is registered in your name. On a £20k car (and yours would cost a fair bit more, I expect) that's something like £4000-£6000 wiped off its value. I think anyone who volunteers for this is crazy.
 
I know that you are neither economist nor mathematician so you'll have to take my word for it that the most economical way of running a car is to buy a new one and to change it after a period of between two and a half and three years. While you are right about the "immediate depreciation" effect, due in part to VAT, you exaggerate the percentage and with some cars it is far lower.

However, you need to consider many other factors. For example, as well as depreciation and amortisation, there is wear and tear (consumables), funding (this may be just opportunity cost), maintenance and service. Not unnaturally, these items increase in cost in direct proportion to the age of the vehicle.

Take into consideration also the long-term warranties and guarantees on offer from some manufacturers, the free insurance and free car recovery (AA, RAC etc) offers and other deals that are available.

A few years ago I managed a business that had quite a large fleet of vehicles, including around six hundred cars. We had a very detailed study conducted on the most economic running period before replacing them with new for old and were quite surprised with the results - two years for high mileage vehicles and three years with those on low mileage.

This applies for domestic vehicles as it does for those run by commercial operations. I "own" two cars which are in different price brackets and you can be sure that I've done the sums.
 
But there again not all people have the monies in which to do that so a lot keep the new car they have purchased much longer.... obviously depending on its reliability/performence etc etc....

I have decided to not get rid of my motor FOCUS TDCI GHIA I've had from new 10,000 miles on the clock, now 3 yrs old as it performs pretty well and I don't want a status motor!! sat on my drive!!! just something that is reliable unless I came into big bucks etc but then I would move home, as well, so a lot of things would change in my life :o ................. :rolleyes: I WISH :D
 
One civil service Department in which I worked had a fleet much bigger than the one referred to by Brian and had their own survey done. They came up with precisely the same answers. As some, but I guess not all, on here might expect, a civil service Department did not run executive class motors but the economic arguments remained just as convincing.
So, having established that Brian has, after all, got a fair smattering of sense, we need to ascertain exactly how much money he has. That is, if we are allowed to help in this debate. Brian......
 
Brian, your argument isn't relevant to the point I'm making.

Who am I to argue with a mathematician or an economist, but wouldn't the economics have been considerably more favourable if the cars had been bought pre-registered at a substantial saving on the new price?

Having said that, I imagine a large fleet buyer would be able to access discounts not available to the private buyer, so in that sense too your argument isn't relevant as my argument pertained only to private buyers.

To go off at a tangent, my own car (Audi A4 1.9TDi) was bought straight from a leasing company having been replaced after just under three years with 85,000 miles on the clock. I got it for about 30% of the new price, which pleased me greatly!
 
I was speaking as a private buyer, who had learned the lesson from studies run by the business. And, with respect, you're entitled to buy at 70% off retail with 85,000 miles on the clock at 30,000 miles a year.
 
I purchase my cars with a one day registration from Ford and get a decent discount off the retail price.

With virtually no mileage. (20-350)

Disadvantage is that a Name appears in the Logbook before mine.

Advantage is that when i replace the cars i get full book value as part exchange.
 
In this example.

FORD KIERDORF GMBH.
KÖLN

First registered 07/07/04

My registration 24/09/04

Kilometre stand 17

Retail price €18780,00

Price to myself €14550,00 included is VAT @ 16%

FORD 2004 MJ FORD FOCUS TURNIER 5-door Ford Focus viva X Edition Model.
1,8L Zetec-E 85KW (115PS) 5 Gear Panther Black Metallic.Upholstery Dark Blue.

Motor Vehicle Type: NEW Vehicle.

AIR CON and all the usual extras ABS Electric Windows and Mirrors Radio CD-Player and other odds and sods.

Why are they doing these kind of deals?

Well there are hundreds various models sitting there at all times.

Tax Avoidence?

Quotas?

Could be a myriad of things.

Good deal for the customer if he/she is not to proud to be the second name on the log book.

the good thing is that when i return a car i get book value on €18780,00
 
Originally posted by BrianH@Sep 8 2005, 08:35 PM
I was speaking as a private buyer, who had learned the lesson from studies run by the business. And, with respect, you're entitled to buy at 70% off retail with 85,000 miles on the clock at 30,000 miles a year.
I know I'm entitled to buy at that price but try and find a dealer that will sell that kind of car at that price. I know you won't find one because I bought it via a dealer's auction.

My point is simple: why pay 100% for a car when you can pay 70% for virtually the sme car. Whoever pays the 100% has more money than sense.

Also, which is more economical: your way or the way I know several people do it, namely to buy an old car with 6-12 months' tax and the best part of a year's MOT (the seller having had to tax & MOT it to put it up for sale) for about £200 and selling it on a year later for £100 and doing the same thing again?
 
Originally posted by BrianH@Sep 8 2005, 09:48 PM
Who owns it for the one day and what is in it for them?
My understanding is that the selling garage owns it and has it registered as part of a bonus package from the manufacturer/supplier.

They receive a certain number of 'bonus' cars either totally free or at vstly discounted prices to allow the manufacturer/supplier to shift stock with the proviso that the cars are sold by a certain date. The retail dealership 'sells' the car to themselves and puts it on sale as pre-registered with a very attractive discount but still at an overall profit to the dealership.
 
Originally posted by Maurice@Sep 9 2005, 08:36 AM
Also, which is more economical: your way or the way I know several people do it, namely to buy an old car with 6-12 months' tax and the best part of a year's MOT (the seller having had to tax & MOT it to put it up for sale) for about £200 and selling it on a year later for £100 and doing the same thing again?
Well, you have me there. I have no figures on that one!
 
Originally posted by Maurice@Sep 8 2005, 02:12 PM
Why do people buy used cars that end up proving to have a dodgy history? Is buying horses any different? Rogue traders are in every walk of life. Often, they're feeding off the greed of people who believe they're buying a bargain. Would these same buyers buy a used car without taking a mechanic along?
I have to disagree with you there, Mo. Of course buying horses is different - you are buying an animal that depends on you to look after & care for it. Ergo, if you are buying one, you should know a lot about horses & if you are inexperienced at spotting the difference between a 12yo horse & a 24yo horse, for example, you should always take someone experienced with you. The reasoning behind this is two-fold - 1) if you're forking out the better part of 2 grand you want to know you're getting your moneys worth & 2) you have to know that you will be capable of looking after/caring for/handling & riding that animal. If you are not capable of 2) then you are, in effect, carrying out animal cruelty in attempting to look after it.
 
Sounds like you're agreeing with me SL...

I'm saying that just as you shouldn't buy a car without seeking the advice of someone who knows about such things, so should you seek the advice of a knowledgeable person when buying a horse.

Obviously, if you're inexperienced with looking after horses you should have ready access to good advice. At the same time if you're buying a car you really should have some inkling about how to look after it.
 
Ok then, so I am agreeing with you! If I buy a car I tend to either take along someone I know who knows a bit about cars, or get it checked out by a mechanic first too.

I guess I read the post wrong, thinking you were saying if people buy cars without taking along a mechanic then why should it be any different from buying horses.
 
Here's another article about horsedealers, taken from the Horse & Hound. They also advocate going into a purchase fully prepared, getting a second opinion & having a horse vetted as well as finding out it's history.

Trading standards spotlight falls on dealer




Shelley Thomas



September 13, 2005

A dealer is being investigated by authorities following a Horse & Hound exposé on websites that dupe buyers into buying horses unseen

Trading Standards officials are investigating a horse dealer, who is at the centre of a string of complaints to animal welfare groups, local authorities and Horse & Hound.

The dealer, who trades using at least two different websites, has been under scrutiny since May. The individual cannot be named during Trading Standards' ongoing investigations.


North Lincolnshire Council Trading Standards manager Malcolm Osborne told Horse & Hound that numerous complaints and enquiries had been received from “purchasers all round the country regarding problems with the horses sold to them”.


He said: “Allegations being investigated include the descriptions applied to the horses about their age and suitability, problems associated with their health and irregularities connected with passports.


“A decision will be taken on whether legal proceedings will be instituted once all the evidence has been gathered and interviews concluded.”


The International League for the Protection of Horses (ILPH) first aired warnings of dealers buying horses cheaply abroad, dosing them up with bute if they were arthritic, and advertising them on websites — often without passports or with false documents — in H&H earlier this year


ILPH spokesman Phil Spiby said the trend had emerged over the past year, adding those “most likely to be duped by dodgy dealers” were first-time horse buyers — a demographic on the rise as people move from the city to the country.


“There are guarantees offered should a buyer not be happy with their purchase, but the reality of getting money back is proving very difficult in practice,” said Spiby, stressing that people should never buy a horse unseen or unvetted.


When contacted by H&H last Friday, the dealer said he had not been formally interviewed by Trading Standards officials, whom he said were checking passports and expected the matter to take three to four weeks.


He put buyers' allegations down to scaremongering by fellow dealers, adding: “The proper place for claims of that nature is a court of law. None are being made in a court of law.”


The dealer also said he had never refused an exchange or refund without a valid reason.


Advice from the ILPH and Trading Standards


Never consider buying a horse unseen or unvetted

Always take your own vet for a pre-sale inspection

Ride a horse before buying

No matter how much equine knowledge you have, always seek a second opinion

Buy locally if possible

Check out the seller/dealer (company search, ask for contacts of previous buyers to seek recommendations)

Look into the full history of the horse you are interested in making an offer

Don't let yourself be rushed into making a decision

Ensure the horse has a passport (it is illegal for any horse to be sold without one) and cross-reference details to ensure the passport is valid and matches the horse

Paying by credit card provides additional rights and safeguards

Ensure the receipt includes any descriptions of warranties

If a deal seems too good to be true, it probably is

If you are concerned contact Consumer Direct (tel: 0845 404 0506)


This news story was first published in full in Horse & Hound (8 September, '05)
 
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