What Does It Mean To Be British?

BrianH

At the Start
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The Daily Telegraph has been asking its readers "What does it mean to be British?" This answer came from a guy in Switzerland:

"Being British is about driving in a German car to an Irish pub for a

Belgian beer, then travelling home, grabbing an Indian curry or a

Turkish kebab on the way, to sit on Swedish furniture and watch

American shows on a Japanese TV. And the most British thing of all?

Suspicion of anything foreign ".
 
The Swiss have got loads to crow about. Yodelling, a knife for all seasons and Ann Bancroft's offspring. I don't trust them.
 
I don't know whether he was Swiss or a tax exile.

Switzerland is virtually a police state.

And, as Orson Welles would want me to remind you, you forgot the cuckoo clock.
 
Seeing as how my significant other is always telling me that I live in Cuckooland, it was most remiss of me LordH. Mind you,I didn't trust Orson Wells either.
 
Originally posted by BrianH@Jan 19 2006, 12:27 AM

Switzerland is virtually a police state.

Brian, this is probably the one issue I would take you on over.

I've lived there, my father's business was Anglo-Swiss and I grew up spending a lot of time there and with Swiss-Germans.

They are indeed every bit as insular as we are but a police state it is not.
 
The word "virtually" appears above. Two examples, one personal, one not.

A colleague and I arrived in Milan and hired a car. We had come for a meeting in Switzerland. We crossed the Swiss border and headed for our hotel on Lake Locarno. At 8.00 pm, on a good road, our car, which contained two middle-aged men in suits and was being driven within the speed limit was stopped by police and we were asked to show our documents. Not a major incident, I agree but it's the only time in many years of overseas travel, business or pleasure, that this has ever happened to me outside of a border crossing point. And that includes trips behind the Iron Curtain, before the fall.

A bigger example is that of Jon Snow, he of Channel 4 News. The incident gets a mention in his book but I have had him recount it to me personally too. (My daughter-in-law is a Channel 4 News producer and was his researcher on the book.)

In January 1991 talks were being held in Geneva between US Secretary of State James Baker and his Iraqi oposite number Tariq Aziz to see whether Saddam Hussein could be persuaded to withdraw peacefully from Kuwait before war broke out. Snow was in Geneva to anchor Channel 4 News live from the city that night.

He was in a deep sleep in his third floor room at the Intercontinental Hotel when three men burst in, having knocked down the locked door. One of them, who Snow noticed was armed, ordered him to get out of bed and made him stand completely naked in front of him. A second whipped a blanket from the bed and wrapped it around him. "Come with us!" he barked. One of the men worked for the hotel, the two with guns were Swiss policemen. They frogmarched him, wearing just his blanket, out of the hotel and down to the central police station.

It was five in the morning when he was flung, still without clothes, into a solitary cell in the police station. It appeared that he had committed an offence but as none of the police spoke English and Snow's French was somewhat erratic he couldn't make out what it was. They flashed documents in front of him. He asked to make a telephone call or for them to make one on his behalf but they refused.

He sat in his cell, wearing his blanket, with no further visit from the police until 8.00 am. He knew that soon his crew would be wondering where he was and that his office in London would be calling him, as arranged, in his room. Once again a policeman came to the cell door flashing a paper he wouldn't let him read. Snow asked again for a phone call and was again refused. His main concern was that he had fought hard to get an interview with Tariq Aziz and that he would lose that. Soon he began to feel that he would be neither clothed nor free by 7.00 pm to present the news.

Finally, at 11.00 am, more than six hours after his arrest he was allowed to make a phone call. He knew the British manager of the Intercontinental Hotel and he called him, telling him that he was naked and had no idea what the hell was going on. The policeman then explained to the hotel manager why they were holding him. "You've failed to pay a speeding fine," his friend told him. "I'll come down and pay it and put it on your bill, it's only 60 Swiss francs (about £25)."

When his friend arrived Snow told him that he had indeed paid the fine that he'd incurred several years earlier when speeding to the offices of Swiss television to report the story of Jasser Arafat at the UN.

"Ah, but you were fined twice," said his friend. "Once for speeding and once for going through a red light, 60 francs for each." Snow had thought that the second fine was a duplicate and had kept it as a receipt to claim on his expenses.

Later Snow discovered that when James Baker had arrived on his official plane at Geneva airport, the US press accompanying him had jumped off the flight first to report, film and photograph his descent down the aircraft steps ahead of the make or break meeting that might or might not avert war in the Gulf. The Swiss police had altogether other ideas and demanded that the press get back on board and file through immigration after Baker had left the airport. As Americans tend to, the press just carried on with what they were doing and the police set about them, beating them with truncheons and manhandling them. Baker's people made a complaint to the Swiss Minister of the Interior. He in turn contacted the police and they decided to run the names of every journalist accredited to the talks through the computer. That's how they discovered the "criminal" J Snow.

Jon Snow claims to have learned two morals from the story: always work on the basis that Switzerland is a police state; and never sleep in a Swiss hotel in the nude.
 
And a fourth - claiming fines on your expenses? Tsk, tsk, Mr Snow - I do hope he declared this on his tax return as a benefit in kind.....

I lived in Geneva for several months - on my own - and worked in various places and for quite a few UN personnel - never had a problem - and I was driving around the city...
 
The fine would be a legitimate expense as he was rushing a story across town to beat the competition. These days, of course, technology has taken over and the car journey wouldn't be necessary.

You do have to agree, though, that it's a strange story. We pondered on where else it could happen. We came up with a few possibles - and there would be different reasons from place to place. Some Latin American countries, North Korea and perhaps parts of the deep south of the USA were what we came up with.
 
Originally posted by BrianH@Jan 19 2006, 12:15 PM
We pondered on where else it could happen.
How about the UK. Although they might let you get dressed first I suppose. People are regularly taken to prison/cells for non payment of fines such as this in the UK. I don't see very much strange with the story at all.
 
Originally posted by BrianH@Jan 19 2006, 12:15 PM
The fine would be a legitimate expense as he was rushing a story across town to beat the competition.


Pretty sure you have this wrong, Brian - claiming any 'fine' or related expense isn't allowable.

Where's our forum Tax inspector when you want him??
 
When was the last time that the British police, armed with automatic weapons, broke down a hotel room door in the middle of the night, took a respectable citizen into custodty stark naked, omitted to tell him why he had been arrested, refused him a phone call and held him incommunicado for over six hours - over the non-payment of a £25 fine?

I would suggest that the answer is never
 
Originally posted by Songsheet@Jan 19 2006, 12:28 PM
Pretty sure you have this wrong, Brian - claiming any 'fine' or related expense isn't allowable.

"Not allowable" means that the company cannot offset such a payment against profits for tax calculations. There is nothing whatsoever to prevent companies reimbursing employees for fines paid in the course of doing their job if the companies decide that the claim is legitimate.

For example, we had a strict policy of not paying fines incurred by our drivers for parking, travelling in bus lanes etc but whwn there was no alternative to parking in restricted zones in order to carry out a customer's delivery or collection, and the traffic wardens would grant no leeway - the West End and City of London being the most common areas - we would reimburse.

As I say, there is nothing wrong with that at all, but you cannot claim it against tax.
 
Ah,but at least your life is not in danger from the Police in Switzerland,especially if you have done nothing unlawful.

You cannot say the same for the Police in England.
 
Originally posted by BrianH@Jan 19 2006, 12:28 PM
When was the last time that the British police, armed with automatic weapons, broke down a hotel room door in the middle of the night, took a respectable citizen into custodty stark naked, omitted to tell him why he had been arrested, refused him a phone call and held him incommunicado for over six hours - over the non-payment of a £25 fine?

I would suggest that the answer is never
Oh I don't know Tony Blair probably would approve of such treatment as part of his Respect Action Plan
 
I would regard the automatic weapons as incidental, given that Swiss police carry them as a matter of course (does it matter that they were automatic either actually, now that I think about it - in fact, they probably weren't, they were probably semi-automatic).

the hotel room door I'm sure happens relatively regularly, although they might just get management to let them in.

is it ok for them to take an unrespectable citizen into custody stark naked?

They attempted to communicate with him in French. Mr Snow doesn't speak French too well and therefore could not understand them, he therefore doesn't know whether they told him what he had been arrested for or not. It was also the middle of the night and therefore it is not unreasonable to suggest that an interpreter might not have been available at that precise moment. My dealings with British police suggest that they would almost certainly have been no quicker in supplying one.

held him incommunicado and refused him a phone call are part of the same thing are they not? However, that does seem a little odd, but, not being up on Swiss law I am unsure whether they have such a provision in their law.

So aside from the phone call I suggest that it is entirely possible, nay probable, that British police have treated people in just such a manner.
 
Funnily enough, the talk here within the last few minutes has been of aggressive tactics by police here. In example 1 a colleague was nearly arrested for walking across the runway as the lights changed from green to red as he passed under them. A policeman said, "sorry mate, you've got to go back", as he was talking to him a female came raring out of the hut by the runway screaming that she was going to have him arrested if he didn't get back. The second one was even more bizarre - a lad walking over the border with headphones on, flashed his passport at Spanish immigration (as you do) and the man nodded him on. Then he sees the customs officials shouting & waving at him, so he turns around to see the Guardia on passport control with his gun out and pointing towards the back of his head!
 
Originally posted by BrianH@Jan 19 2006, 01:09 PM
simmo, it's begining to sound like the argument of someone who is in the throes of giving up smoking
But I am still revelling in the nasty, nasty, nasty, lung infecting, wallet emptying delightfulness of my addiction at present. I have not started stopping yet.

All I am saying is that I don't feel that the story is all that remarkable. Clearly you feel differently. That's cool, I'm sure we can both live with it. :D
 
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