Whip Bans.

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Colin Phillips

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After the bans handed out at Cheltenham for misuse of the whip I am wondering what has been happening at Punchestown.

I haven't been watching all the races, just the classier ones, but I haven't noticed any abuse by the jocks.

Have there been any bans handed out, if not, should there have been?

I didn't/haven't seen Blazing Bailey's race, but that read a hard race, did Thornton behave?
 
Colin, far more "misuse" of the whip occurs in Ireland but there are far less bans due to their more lenient rules, don't think get bans for whip misuse. Something the nutters should bear in mind when advocating disqualification here for whip misuse. Whip use is very well controlled here.
 
Originally posted by Dante@Apr 26 2008, 07:01 AM
Colin, far more "misuse" of the whip occurs in Ireland but there are far less bans due to their more lenient rules, don't think get bans for whip misuse.
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They do. Ruby got a two-day ban at Tramore last week for excessive use of the whip after winning on How's Trix.
 
I think what Dante means is that Irish stewards tend to take a pragmatic view of things, let some things go and others not. That is why a lot of non-Irish people find some of the stewards decisions to be quite strange and no real standard. The irish stewards will set out their stall with the jocks and trainers which is relatively lenient but if they step outside it they get done. but it also means there is a little inconsistency from time to time. You will very rarely see a long whip ban and we would not bring in the totting up rule here as it takes the power away from stewards by giving autmoatic bans. Rather the stewards here will take a lad who keeps on getting whip bans aside and tell him that if he doesn't cop on the next one will be 10 days and the one after that 20 days.Same goes with trainers. They are lenient to a point as long as lads aren't mesing.
 
Originally posted by Cantoris@Apr 26 2008, 10:26 AM
I think what Dante means is that Irish stewards tend to take a pragmatic view of things, let some things go and others not. That is why a lot of non-Irish people find some of the stewards decisions to be quite strange and no real standard. The irish stewards will set out their stall with the jocks and trainers which is relatively lenient but if they step outside it they get done. but it also means there is a little inconsistency from time to time. You will very rarely see a long whip ban and we would not bring in the totting up rule here as it takes the power away from stewards by giving autmoatic bans. Rather the stewards here will take a lad who keeps on getting whip bans aside and tell him that if he doesn't cop on the next one will be 10 days and the one after that 20 days.Same goes with trainers. They are lenient to a point as long as lads aren't mesing.
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Cantoris I think you have a very rose tinted view of Irish stewards!
 
Originally posted by Cantoris@Apr 26 2008, 09:26 AM
That is why a lot of non-Irish people find some of the stewards decisions to be quite strange and no real standard.
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Believe me, Cantoris, there are a fair few Irish (myself included!) that have found a number of stewards decisions to be very strange indeed (not limited to whip use either).
 
One becomes a jockey. One retires as a jockey. One scratches one's head whilst trying to think what he can do for a living. The BHA offer one a cushy number. One accepts.
 
Originally posted by Shadow Leader@Apr 26 2008, 08:43 PM
One becomes a jockey. One retires as a jockey. One scratches one's head whilst trying to think what he can do for a living. The BHA offer one a cushy number. One accepts.
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Not in Ireland!! I believe it is done by nomination and if you pass the course and are accepted you're in. The Irish stewards rely heavily on their stewards secretaries.

Gal, the standard of stewardship has not changed much in Ireland since I started racing. They could do with banning one or two of the trainers for a long time but their hands are tied here a little. Where do you see specific problems with stewarding, excluding the obvious inconsistencies which are the responsibility of the stewards secretaries to iron out by the way?
 
I'm not aware that many Stewards are ex-jockeys, in fact I thought they came mainly if not exclusively from nominations by the Jockey Club. Quite a lot are ex-Services, and a few were certainly amateurs. Ex-jocks tend to become Starters [or farriers, if they don't become trainers]. I only know one Steward, he's on the SW circuit, mainly jumps. He's pretty 'posh' LOL and I think he's fairly typical. In fact I've just emailed the Jockey Club to ask them how Stewards are selected!

The only Stewards' Secretary I know is Sarah who lives with ex-jump jock Simon McNeil, now a Starter. She goes to the same meetings as him, and works damn hard. it's quite a complicated job by all accounts
 
I know three Irish stewards and they are just ordinary blokes. One has a stud, the other has a bakery and not quite sure what the third lad does but he isn't posh. Certainly a few of them have been given the role because of who they are but also a few former judges in there. A lot of the work falls to the stewards secretary so not surprised Sarah works so hard. I think it's a guy called Matthews in Ireland. He is possibly one of the most hated individuals in Irish racing, not because he is a bad bloke but because everyone who gets a ban at any racecourse sees him in the stewards room so naturally they don't particularly like him. But it is a tough job and I think stewards, like GAA refs get the rough end of the stick for a job that they are not paid to do. They try to act professionaly but every no and again they make mistakes but that is for their stewards secretary to point out to them.
 
There are two types of stewards in the UK - stipendiary stewards (the 'professional' ones, if you like) and the local stewards who are part timers and have little or no power to do anything. The power lies with the stipendiary stewards, "stipes", and there are I believe only 4 in the UK, all or most of which are former jockeys. Ex-jockeys Tony McGlone, Robert Sidebottom and Paul Barton make up three of the stipes.

In actual fact, it is a deliberate ploy to se ex-jockeys as stipes as they have been there, got the t-shirt, and so are in a better position to see things from the point of view of the jockeys, allegedly! I also personally think that there is a large element of trying to break down the "us and them" barriers, and hoping jocks will be a little more forthcoming and receptive to the stipes if they were formally one of "us".

How they recruit the local stewards is down to each track but the local stewards have little or no power to hand down bans and the suchlike anyway - ultimately it becomes the decision of the stipes, who run the show.
 
Actually there has to be more than 4 stipes, although I know there aren't very many. For some reason I'm sure that in a seminar I attended recently they mentioned there were only 4 stipes, or only 4 stipes up until recently, which can't be right.
 
I went to an ROA seminar a couple of years ago that was about stewards adn stewarding - I got dragged into one of their interactive bits and got told I was very harsh for lumping a big ban on one jockey in a race - (if I remember rightly, his horse drifted across another,his stick was in the wrong hand,he was a pro and the other was a 7lb claimer (which Im told isnt allowed to count!) oh - and it was a jock that I dont like,which probably had more than a bit to do with it too...( also not allowed mores the pity!!)

It was a really interesting day in all - and yes - the secretaries work their butts off.
 
Originally posted by Shadow Leader@Apr 27 2008, 07:01 PM
Actually there has to be more than 4 stipes, although I know there aren't very many. For some reason I'm sure that in a seminar I attended recently they mentioned there were only 4 stipes, or only 4 stipes up until recently, which can't be right.
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http://www.britishhorseracing.com/inside_h.../regulation.asp

Stipendiary Stewards
Manager: William Nunneley
Employees: 15 full-time

Not sure if that means there's 15 stipes, or if it's referring to support staff.

Edit: or a combination of both!
 
I can't for the life of me remember where the "only 4" comes into it - I'm sure that was mentioned at one point! Although as has already been pointed out, 5 have been named already and with 2 in attendance at each racemeeting there would need to be more like 15.

That's annoying me now - I know McGlone said something about 4....!!
 
I think we could do with some consistency in Ireland regarding how the races are officiated. There seems to be different rules for different yards.At the start of flat races sometimes they spend about 5 mins trying to load a reluctant horse where other times they just seem to be going through the motions.
 
SL I think the 'four' are the Jockey Club regular stewards, there def four of them, as listed on their website, though I'm not sure what their role in racing is - probably mainly honorary or to do with disciplinary matters to do with the JC maybe? They are two Snr JC Stewards too, here' the full list:

Julian Richmond-Watson - Senior Steward
Sir Michael Connell - Deputy Senior Steward
Nicholas Wrigley - Steward
The Duke of Roxburghe - Steward
Jeff Smith - Steward
Sir Ian Good - Steward

Interesting points about the use of ex-Jocks as Stipendaries - agreed it does make sense in terms of respect and authority to use people who have 'been there done that'

So much has changed in terms of how racing is run in the last five years, it's quite hard to keep track it now.

I agree that watching racing in Ireland, it's hard not to notice that there does seem to be one set of rules for the top yards [well, Ballyoyle!] and another for the lesser lights
 
The "four" as I recall it was to do with stipes I'm sure as the subject matter didn't even cover senior stewards - I'm buggered if I can remember exactly what it was to do with though! Maybe it was said that until recently there were only four, I really can't remember now!
 
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