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The Great Man

mellows45 said:
but to talk down on his philanthropy because its only "a tiny fraction of what he saves" is ridiculous. He just gave 32 million to the GAA, something the government would have never done with his money if they had it.
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Calling that philanthropy is part of the con. It is not charity when the money should have gone into the public coffers, to be spent for the benefit of everyone, not according to one rich man’s personal preferences.
 
All getting a bit "political" and I've belatedly learned to steer clear of all that in life.

All I'll say is that I've never been big on people telling me I should be "thankful" for things, especially when it's someone, who evidently isn't keen on funding hospitals and other things in the public sector, controlling how much they contribute, while the vast majority on lower incomes pay tax.

"Philanthropy," my arse.
 
Is Coolmore stud in Ireland still tax exempt?

Was it a well known former politician called Charles Haughey that sorted that one out for the lads back in the day?

Someone remind me. I genuinely can't remember.
 
I believe the great man has funded hospitals as well.
One thing that sets him apart is his "common touch "; he knows how to get and keep people onside doing those little things most folk in his situation would consider "beneath them ".
Should either of his horses win the Gold Cup Friday it will be his third win as owner/breeder.
I struggle to think any other owner/bred Gold Cup winner.
 
Marble said:
Is Coolmore stud in Ireland still tax exempt?

Was it a well known former politician called Charles Haughey that sorted that one out for the lads back in the day?

Someone remind me. I genuinely can't remember.
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Stallion fees income and stallion share profits are tax exempt.
This was introduced by a Finance Minister in the early 1960s (not Haughey) for Irish residents.
Haughey extended it to non resident stallion owners in 1969 to enable Raymond Guest stand Sir Ivor in Ireland that year , the U.S. Ambassador's term then at an end.
Raymond famously had a £500ew ante post bet on Sir Ivor at 100/1 to win the Epsom Derby; US Revenue got 35 % of the winnings .
 
Ian_Davies said:
All getting a bit "political" and I've belatedly learned to steer clear of all that in life.

All I'll say is that I've never been big on people telling me I should be "thankful" for things, especially when it's someone, who evidently isn't keen on funding hospitals and other things in the public sector, controlling how much they contribute, while the vast majority on lower incomes pay tax.

"Philanthropy," my arse.
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He’ll give money to hospitals no problem, as long as they’re in Limerick.
 
If only everyone was in a position to use legal tax avoidance to determine precisely how much they contributed to society and where their voluntary contributions were directed - I'm sure there is no chance whatsoever that society would collapse.

And for avoidance of doubt, I'm not remotely interested in how many winners he's owned or bred, how much he's won betting, or how many people in racing derive an income from his patronage.

The pinnacle of my brief interest in the bloke peaked with his "they know about it" interview on the BBC at the Cheltenham Festival in the 1980s and that interest has rapidly diminished ever since, whereas many others, whether motivated by quasi-feudal financial deference, resentment, or something inbetween, seem endlessly fascinated by him.
 
Slim said:
The government being incompetent is one of the poorest arguments put forward by tax-exile sympathisers. If that is the justification, then why don’t we all just stop paying tax?
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Pointing out the blindingly obvious and you can tell me if I'm wrong Slim. In your time as a professional gambler a fair few years now I'm presuming you dont have to pay tax on your winnings ? I take it in that period of time you made as much as an average mans wage at least if not substantially more. Did you volunteer to pay your tax on your earnings ? If you didn't pay tax because you didnt have to, how much do you have to make before it becomes morally wrong not to pay ones share ?

Im not casting judgement of course if someone told me I didnt have to pay tax tomorrow I wouldn't. Just asking the question.
 
Danny said:
Pointing out the blindingly obvious and you can tell me if I'm wrong Slim. In your time as a professional gambler a fair few years now I'm presuming you dont have to pay tax on your winnings ? I take it in that period of time you made as much as an average mans wage at least if not substantially more. Did you volunteer to pay your tax on your earnings ? If you didn't pay tax because you didnt have to, how much do you have to make before it becomes morally wrong not to pay ones share ?

Im not casting judgement of course if someone told me I didnt have to pay tax tomorrow I wouldn't. Just asking the question.
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You are arguing with a label I never used about myself and comparing two things that are plainly not the same. Availing of the tax rules where you live is one thing. Exiling yourself to Geneva, saving a fortune, and then being applauded for handing back a selected slice of it is quite another.
 
I still think complaining about someone not paying their fair share into a system you withdrew yourself from under whatever job title you gave it is a bit of a stretch. Like Ian I never really take much notice of JP I'm not interested really one way or the other. People that rich are a different species, rules and laws don't apply to them any of them. When you've made that much money by hook or by crook you've won the game of life, you have the "f%*& you" money, you do what you want.

It's as I've said before on here people are either a net positive or a net negative in life. JP's made his money created wealth some of that trickles down into jobs created and what good deeds he does whatever he's far surpassed carrying his own weight in the world. Why should people like him be criticised when someone is on their arse somewhere because they can't be bothered to do anything and get to live of others.

I know it won't be a popular opinion but before If people concentrated on there own short comings and the things they are doing wrong rather than pointing fingers the world would be a lot better place.
 
Danny said:
I still think complaining about someone not paying their fair share into a system you withdrew yourself from under whatever job title you gave it is a bit of a stretch. Like Ian I never really take much notice of JP I'm not interested really one way or the other. People that rich are a different species, rules and laws don't apply to them any of them. When you've made that much money by hook or by crook you've won the game of life, you have the "f%*& you" money, you do what you want.

It's as I've said before on here people are either a net positive or a net negative in life. JP's made his money created wealth some of that trickles down into jobs created and what good deeds he does whatever he's far surpassed carrying his own weight in the world. Why should people like him be criticised when someone is on their arse somewhere because they can't be bothered to do anything and get to live of others.

I know it won't be a popular opinion but before If people concentrated on there own short comings and the things they are doing wrong rather than pointing fingers the world would be a lot better place.
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I did not “withdraw myself” from anything. I live under Irish tax rules. McManus chose to live in Geneva, save a fortune, then get praised for handing back a selected slice of it. Those two things are not remotely the same.
And the swipe at people “on their arse” tells its own story. When the defence of a billionaire ends with contempt for the poor, you have already lost the argument.
 
Steeplechasing said:
Availing of the tax rules where you live is one thing. Exiling yourself to Geneva ... is quite another.

In what way (other than geographically)?
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In the way that one involves ordinary tax treatment where you live, and the other involves relocating to a low-tax jurisdiction while still being treated as a local benefactor.
 
I’ve been watching a lot of Cheltenham previews on utube and keep getting adverts telling me that if I take my business to Dubai I will pay hardly any tax.
 
Slim said:
I did not “withdraw myself” from anything. I live under Irish tax rules. McManus chose to live in Geneva, save a fortune, then get praised for handing back a selected slice of it. Those two things are not remotely the same.
And the swipe at people “on their arse” tells its own story. When the defence of a billionaire ends with contempt for the poor, you have already lost the argument.
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It wasn't a swipe at the poor it's a swipe at the lazy. People who do nothing. There's a big difference there are plenty of poor people in the world working their arses off.

Praised for handing back a slice ? The great thing about this is ....he doesn't have to. When you've made that sort of money or even a lot less than he has you can do whatever you want for the rest of your life. Now you can go the Mcgregor route sniffing coke and banging hookers on yachts in fact just indulge for the rest of your life and do nothing for no one he might well pay his taxes but I doubt very much he pays what he should. I dont know what JP has done or donated a quick Google said estimated 100million in donations to hospitals or whatever. How many people on earth will ever contribute that much good to something? How many people does he employ ? Are they paid well ? Treated fairly ? Are his wife and kids looked after ?

As far as im concerned why should he do anymore ? And the thing you need to remember is he might not be finished perhaps he does something with the entirety of his wealth on his deathbed and he can do that if he chooses and at least he sees to it that it goes to the right causes because he controls it not the government.

I pay roughly 10k a year in tax and 3k Ni for a pension ill probably never see and for us to be bombing the shit out of people and putting up migrants in hotels. If I had a choice id rather my tax be treating kids with cancer, or building hospitals, schools and jails whatever.
 
Danny said:
It wasn't a swipe at the poor it's a swipe at the lazy. People who do nothing. There's a big difference there are plenty of poor people in the world working their arses off.

Praised for handing back a slice ? The great thing about this is ....he doesn't have to. When you've made that sort of money or even a lot less than he has you can do whatever you want for the rest of your life. Now you can go the Mcgregor route sniffing coke and banging hookers on yachts in fact just indulge for the rest of your life and do nothing for no one he might well pay his taxes but I doubt very much he pays what he should. I dont know what JP has done or donated a quick Google said estimated 100million in donations to hospitals or whatever. How many people on earth will ever contribute that much good to something? How many people does he employ ? Are they paid well ? Treated fairly ? Are his wife and kids looked after ?

As far as im concerned why should he do anymore ? And the thing you need to remember is he might not be finished perhaps he does something with the entirety of his wealth on his deathbed and he can do that if he chooses and at least he sees to it that it goes to the right causes because he controls it not the government.

I pay roughly 10k a year in tax and 3k Ni for a pension ill probably never see and for us to be bombing the shit out of people and putting up migrants in hotels. If I had a choice id rather my tax be treating kids with cancer, or building hospitals, schools and jails whatever.
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Spot on
 
Danny said:
It wasn't a swipe at the poor it's a swipe at the lazy. People who do nothing. There's a big difference there are plenty of poor people in the world working their arses off.

Praised for handing back a slice ? The great thing about this is ....he doesn't have to. When you've made that sort of money or even a lot less than he has you can do whatever you want for the rest of your life. Now you can go the Mcgregor route sniffing coke and banging hookers on yachts in fact just indulge for the rest of your life and do nothing for no one he might well pay his taxes but I doubt very much he pays what he should. I dont know what JP has done or donated a quick Google said estimated 100million in donations to hospitals or whatever. How many people on earth will ever contribute that much good to something? How many people does he employ ? Are they paid well ? Treated fairly ? Are his wife and kids looked after ?

As far as im concerned why should he do anymore ? And the thing you need to remember is he might not be finished perhaps he does something with the entirety of his wealth on his deathbed and he can do that if he chooses and at least he sees to it that it goes to the right causes because he controls it not the government.

I pay roughly 10k a year in tax and 3k Ni for a pension ill probably never see and for us to be bombing the shit out of people and putting up migrants in hotels. If I had a choice id rather my tax be treating kids with cancer, or building hospitals, schools and jails whatever.
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What a load of servile nonsense.

Your entire argument is that once a man gets rich enough he should be allowed decide for himself whether society deserves his tax, then hand-pick a few causes for applause and call that virtue. That is not wisdom. It is billionaire worship.

“He doesn’t have to” is not the defence you think it is. That is precisely the criticism. Ordinary people do not get to opt out of public obligation because they dislike the government or fancy themselves a better allocator of resources. Why should he?

And all this guff about hookers, yachts and deathbeds is just childish padding around the same rotten core: you think private whim is nobler than public duty as long as the cheque is big enough.

The truth is much simpler. Tax is not meant to be replaced by a rich man’s vanity projects. The moment you start arguing that it should, you are no longer defending fairness. You are just kneeling before wealth.
 
Slim said:
What a load of servile nonsense.

Your entire argument is that once a man gets rich enough he should be allowed decide for himself whether society deserves his tax, then hand-pick a few causes for applause and call that virtue. That is not wisdom. It is billionaire worship.

“He doesn’t have to” is not the defence you think it is. That is precisely the criticism. Ordinary people do not get to opt out of public obligation because they dislike the government or fancy themselves a better allocator of resources. Why should he?
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No I didnt say he should be able to. I said he can and if most people could they would and I don't blame him for doing it. Has he broken any laws ?

What do you mean ordinary people do not get to opt out of public obligation.

Are we talking about ordinary people who refuse to go to work and live off the state ? And before you twist it to be people with disabilities or people who genuinely can't find work. Im talking people who choose to live on benefits.

Are we talking about some of the lads ive worked with who earn up to £700-£1000 per week but claim they still live with their mom and dad so the Mrs can still claim full benefits at their real address.

Or are we talking about all the self employed lot with cash in hand jobs and good accountants ?

Or people just working part time because the universal credits will top them up.

Or are we talking small businesses and all the fiddles that go on there give the wife a job there as fart monitor for 12.5k.

Or all the money laundering businesses just brazenly operating down our high streets plain as day.

But let's get something straight. It's the government that allows all that to happen so these ordinary people are all playing the system the best they can the same as JP has done. If you teach all the groundworkers amd plasterers how to apply for Swiss citizenship they wouldn't even blink if it saved them few quid.

What ordinary people are you talking about ?

The likes of me that's who Employee for 30 years worked my arse off paid everything I should and for what ? So I can feel like i did my bit whilst everyone else takes the piss. You might read about it but I'm talking about my life. You get no more working class than a black country, foundry man and shop steward.

JP and his ilk are very special people. You have to be special to make that sort of wealth. If not everyone would have a billion. That's life, its a heirachy special people go to the top. Ordinary folk like me are worker bees.

Governments are failing the people all around the world. Look at where tax payers money has gone over the past few decades. Things like bank bail outs PPE contracts, Look at the mess of HS2. Birmingham Council. Pick anything you like would you trust these fuckers with JP's money. I wouldnt have a clue about your Irish politicians but f%*& me Boris, Starmer, Sunak I wouldnt trust them to run a bath.

It's a shit situation World wide atm but if you think people like JP are the bad guys then you are wide of the mark.
 
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As an ex Tax Inspector for over 40 years (stands back to avoid the abuse!!), I well remember the old cynic who helped in my early training telling us that for the very rich it was a choice for them whether or not they paid tax. Nothing has changed. The filthy rich may salve their conscience with their good works and charitable gifts (usually well publicised). At the same time, whilst many fawn over these great people, society is quick to demonise and prosecute the single mum who doesn`t declare the pittance she receives from doing a few hours cleaning work. And, of course, such discussions most always include the demonising of that vast army of shirkers....whoever they are. Do we so easily forget Covid.....thousands of low paid hospital staff and care workers dying and the country on it`s knees....yet the rich and wealthy climbing over themselves to get into the VIP lane so their bank accounts could be further boosted by ripping off the country. I bet more single mums have been prosecuted than the filth who ripped off the country during covid.
 

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