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Frankel v Brigadier Gerard. The greatest showdown.
- Thread starter brigust
- Start date
Coach miguel
Apprentice
Jeezo guys,this is my chill place when talking about horse racing. It's all subjective but imho Frankel isn't better than,ribot sea bird or el gran senor. To me el gran senor is the best miler there's been. His 2000 guineas win was immense. Quickened,then quicken again then quicken again when challenged by chief singer with class horses left trailing. Frankels longevity and recency bias means many put him top. Great horse but not the best for me I'm afraid. The brigadier was also a fantastic horse. All about opinions. Doubt many folks will change unless we see a horse better.
Coach miguel
Apprentice
Amazing the passion we have when taking about our fav horses.
Wow, Jayhawk. Who was the author?
This really does smell of jealousy and hatred while not being able to get away from the fact that it is a very good book. Which, by the way is over 500 pages of which about 15 pages deals with the Queen Anne Stakes won by Frankel and how Timeform, I believe, got it completely wrong. As also shown in the video.
As far as a professional editor and proof reader I paid for both but you cannot always get what you pay for. Picking such ridiculous criticisms as punctuation in such a ground breaking book where the establishment are taken to task for over egging the hype is a bit ridiculous, in the extreme. But what else could they do?
Notice how the author tried to attack the book while inevitably praising it wholeheartedly. I did ask the Racing Post for one of their journalists to help me but when he knew it included Frankel he declined.
In 2022 I toured all the racecourses Brigadier Gerard ran at, I produced a superb display stand, if you don't mind me saying, and had a great time. No member of Timeform or the press corps came to my stand, many walked past it.
That is true Jayhawk, I don't know if you learned that from my book but what was odd about that statement by Vincent is that it was made in 2006 over 30 years after the race and when Vincent was about 90 and he died about 3 years later. That was the only time I found that comment or any comment about a buzzer in any of his books. A confession of sorts? Of course he couldn't destroy his career, could he?
Jayhawk
Amateur Rider
Keith Knight is the author of the horseracingmatters blog. It's not a name I've heard before, but I clicked randomly on one of his older blog entries - the one for 26/12/2021 - and he was discussing Desert Orchid's first King George VI Chase win in 1986 and mentioned that he was at the course that day attending to a runner in a later race.
edgt
Senior Jockey
For all the buzzer talk Roberto could "only " muster a Timeform rating of 131 in 1972 despite his Derby and York victories and possibly unlucky 2000 Gns second.( came from the pack to run all the way winner to 1/2 length with the third 6 lengths back.)
Before my time but Brigadier/Mill Reef/Homeric/Hard To Beat/Sallust/Lyphard/Roberto /Rheingold all rated 130 plus made 1972 a vintage, vintage year.
I remember reading Joe Mercer describing Brigadier finishing the King George "on fumes ", or words to that effect.
Like Grundy a few years later, the effects of a tough King George can felt on the Knavesmire.
Before my time but Brigadier/Mill Reef/Homeric/Hard To Beat/Sallust/Lyphard/Roberto /Rheingold all rated 130 plus made 1972 a vintage, vintage year.
I remember reading Joe Mercer describing Brigadier finishing the King George "on fumes ", or words to that effect.
Like Grundy a few years later, the effects of a tough King George can felt on the Knavesmire.
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You are right about Roberto but Timeform refused to give him a rating for York. It would have been far too high. What people dont understand about BG running in the King George is that it was his 5th top class race in 9 weeks. Frankel ran 5 races in 27 weeks and Sea Bird II in 24 weeks. It was a big ask. Hislop was old school he wasn't interested in being unbeaten he wanted to find out how good his horse was and what big races he could win. I do think it was still in his legs at York but he broke the course record so maybe I am wrong.
Hi Ardross, yes Jean Hislop was fiesty but in many cases all she was doing was defending the sport she loved and, in many cases her husband, John, who received a lot of abuse for his views about where British horseracing was going and the damage being done to existing, long-established bloodlines. Views which I believe could be being proved correct today.
And she was outspoken, no doubt about that. With a friend, she is reported to have attacked Vincent O'Brien at Epsom with umbrella's after Lester rode Roberto to win the Derby. She was incensed because VOB had allowed Bill Williamson to be jocked-off Roberto in favour of Lester. I have this belief that this led to Roberto beating the Brigadier at York. But it is only a personal belief.
Keep Quiet
Amateur Rider
Double post
Keep Quiet
Amateur Rider
Just my opinion, and I was not an uncritical fan of Lester Piggott, but I truly believe that only he could have delivered Roberto on the line that day. Of course nowadays he would have been stood down for abuse of the whip. I also should own up to having backed Rheingold in that Derby.
Roberto was a reluctant racehorse. He had a lot of talent but often decided not to use it to the full. Lester was unique. The difference between him and most other jockeys was that he didn't lose races he should have won and did win races he shouldn't have won.
edgt
Senior Jockey
Is it written in Barry Hill's book that Ernie Johnson did his utmost to keep Rheingold balanced rather than go all out to win the Derby ?
Lester supposedly told Ernie after that he should have gone for his race and let the Stewards worry about the ramifications of disqualifying a Derby winner; a unique approach .
Champion at two in Ireland with 131 ratings at 3 and 4 , Roberto was a far better horse than he got credit for.
Snookera, his first runner won the opening juvenile race at Phoenix Park, Chesham Stakes and Cheveley Park Stakes .
Owner Robert Sangster 's desire for money to settle a divorce saw her sold to Juddmonte for a relative pittance.
Her grand daughter Hansili made her owner's colours very familiar on Timeform lists with her offspring.
Lester supposedly told Ernie after that he should have gone for his race and let the Stewards worry about the ramifications of disqualifying a Derby winner; a unique approach .
Champion at two in Ireland with 131 ratings at 3 and 4 , Roberto was a far better horse than he got credit for.
Snookera, his first runner won the opening juvenile race at Phoenix Park, Chesham Stakes and Cheveley Park Stakes .
Owner Robert Sangster 's desire for money to settle a divorce saw her sold to Juddmonte for a relative pittance.
Her grand daughter Hansili made her owner's colours very familiar on Timeform lists with her offspring.
I do agree Roberto was considered by his connections, who thought him to be the equal of Nijinsky and Sir Ivor, to be a far better horse than he was given credit for because he found himself in positions where he was unable to win from. In particular the Grand Criterium as a 2 year old and the 2000 Guineas at Newmarket. They didn't believe it was his lack of pace more his lethargic way of running.
Going back to the earlier point with regard to Jean Hislop and her attack on VOB at Epsom it could be believed that it was that day the plan to do what I believe they did at York was hatched. A tailed off run at the Curragh in the Irish Derby followed by the suggestion that Roberto would run in the Great Voltigeur and not the Benson & Hedges, which prompted Lester to agree to ride Rheingold, left the way open for what could have been one of the best laid plans in horseracing? We will never know.
edgt
Senior Jockey
I will try corner Owen Weldon at the races this weekend to see if he can shed any light.
I doubt MVOB would have been so petty though it reflects poorly on the ghastly Mrs Hislop as the evidence appears clear that it was the owner not MVOB who stood Williamson down - and Williamson only had the ride in the first place as Lester had commited to riding Crowned Prince . He had looked exceptional in the Dewhurst only to go in his wind and have to be retired after the Craven . Nowadays nobody would have batted an eyelid if the first choice jockey of the stable had got back on for the 2000 Guineas let alone the Derby.
Roberto simply could not go right handed - all his bad runs were that way round. Also didn't Lester think he would have got the Derby in the stewards room anyway as Rheingold had been leaning on him all the way to the line.