12f championship races

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HawkWing

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Arc completely underwhelming me this year. Once upon a time, Love and Ghayyaith (and Magical even) would have taken their chance, because, it was the Arc after all, and there is only one Arc, regardless of ground. Interesting and all that they are, it is dependent on left-field contenders for any interest, rather than any sort of clash of champions.

I'm deciding to call time on the 12f division in general. Coronation Cup pointless, King George all but dead, and this Arc is the most underwhelming since the 12 runner affair (4 japanese raiders) last year. Don't get me started on the Derby(ies).

It seems the media are hell bent on saying otherwise. But not all connections are that bothered, and I think that the division have as much relevance as the Cup races in a decade - the esteem they were once held in will be looked upon as an oddity in future generations.

Anyway, things change I suppose.
 
I totally get where you're coming from HW.

During the week [elsewhere] I referred to today's Sun Chariot as a "glorified handicap". Listening to the TV people you'd think it was one of the races of the season.

I'm a retired teacher. At the last inspection of the school before I retired (nearly 10 years ago now) the inspectors interviewed some of my best pupils with whom I got on really well. They worked very hard for me and I for them.

They were asked how often I praised them. They told me they didn't know what to say but apparently one piped up, "Mr O'Neill is strict but very fair. When he does praise you you know it means something."

I find myself approaching racing similarly.

If I think a G1 is substandard I will argue accordingly. This year's 3yos are generally substandard. Kameko won a poor Guineas but has subsequently improved and isn't far off true true G1 status [on my figures], ie 126 for colts and 123 for fillies.

I think Serpentine was a good winner of a poor Derby, likewise Love in the Oaks.

However, I've always had a high opinion of Enable and am not surprised she is bidding for history tomorrow. I suspect the ground might beat her rather than the opposition.

I have big figures for Ghaiyyath and Magical too, while Strad is a G1 stayer.

But I do wish the TV people would spare us the inane hyperbole showered on ordinary animals just because a race has G1 status.
 
Love is a speed horse, but the Arc isn't a speed test, and she wouldn't have fared well - whatever the ground. Ghaiyaath had his limitations exposed recently, and was . likewise, always an unlikely contender, even before his denoument.
The absence of neither detracts from what remains Europe's premier middle distance test, and it's still attracted its usual host of top class horses, so it's hard to see any. justification for throwing the baby out with the bathwater. as it were
 
Proving the point. If Love and Ghayyaith are no loss to the race, as you suggest, it shows the dearth that is over 12f. Ghayyaith has beaten the favourite and second favourite this year and even he was an unlikely Arc contender. Now that Mogul isn't running, none of the arc trial winners are turning up.
 
Tarnawa, one of the trial winners you refer to, didn't turn up in the Arc because connections doubted she'd be good enough to justify paying the 70k needed to be supplemented.

Mogul and the other declared O'Brien runners didn't turn up for reasons that had nothing to do with the prestige of the race. In fact Coolmore has done more to maintain the prestige of the Derby than any other operation in recent times. It is the race they aspire to win above all others, and they still regard 12f as the blue riband distance.

Personally I think the Arc is the greatest flat race anywhere. It brings together the generations and the sexes, as well as stayers like Stradivarius and milers like Persian King trying to show they can succeed on the most prestigious stage of all. There are alternative targets for the likes of Ghaiyyath and Love but they would have been running yesterday if there was a chance of them winning.
 
Agree Coolmore has done plenty for the Derby; invariably run their best colt in it (though it doesn't always perform). It's their stated aim to support the gp1's - on both sides of the Irish Sea. Maybe cynical to suppose so, but it doesn't do their business much harm, either.
Also agree the Arc is the best race in the world, but there's always some who'll decry any race.
 
Grey said:
Tarnawa, one of the trial winners you refer to, didn't turn up in the Arc because connections doubted she'd be good enough to justify paying the 70k needed to be supplemented.

Mogul and the other declared O'Brien runners didn't turn up for reasons that had nothing to do with the prestige of the race. In fact Coolmore has done more to maintain the prestige of the Derby than any other operation in recent times. It is the race they aspire to win above all others, and they still regard 12f as the blue riband distance.

Personally I think the Arc is the greatest flat race anywhere. It brings together the generations and the sexes, as well as stayers like Stradivarius and milers like Persian King trying to show they can succeed on the most prestigious stage of all. There are alternative targets for the likes of Ghaiyyath and Love but they would have been running yesterday if there was a chance of them winning.
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Yes. The Arc is the greatest - in the sense that it is the most elite - flat race anywhere and yesterday's was probably the best 12f flat race of the season, possibly even the best Flat race at any distance of the season, but it wasn't anywhere near as good as it could have been in different circumstances.
 
Grey said:
Tarnawa, one of the trial winners you refer to, didn't turn up in the Arc because connections doubted she'd be good enough to justify paying the 70k needed to be supplemented.

Mogul and the other declared O'Brien runners didn't turn up for reasons that had nothing to do with the prestige of the race. In fact Coolmore has done more to maintain the prestige of the Derby than any other operation in recent times. It is the race they aspire to win above all others, and they still regard 12f as the blue riband distance.

Personally I think the Arc is the greatest flat race anywhere. It brings together the generations and the sexes, as well as stayers like Stradivarius and milers like Persian King trying to show they can succeed on the most prestigious stage of all. There are alternative targets for the likes of Ghaiyyath and Love but they would have been running yesterday if there was a chance of them winning.
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I agree that the Arc was the greatest flat race anywhere (and the King George WAS the centrepiece of mid summer for the same reason you state (battle of sexes, generations, stayers, 10f horses, previous years leger winners etc). It's why I started this thread.

There was a time where the supplementary fee wouldn't have stopped Tarnawa from running (and possibly winning) - as it WAS the Arc.

Old enough to remember Ardross, Westerner and Oscar Schindler running well in Arcs, cant remember a miler going for it, although Persian King did finish second in the French Derby. To me this year, they were taking advantage of a particularly poorly contested 12f crop.

The Derby has been on Coolmore's life support for the past decade. Would bet right now, that the Ryan Moore ridden, APO'Brien trained horse will start no worse than third favourite next year, regardless of form.
 
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It's a case of the glass being half empty or half full.

Apart from the horses that couldn't run because of the feed problem, there was no horse that could have won the Arc that was not in it. Tarnawa didn't run because connections doubted she was good enough, Love and Ghaiyyath because the conditions on the day would not have allowed them to perform to their best. These horses have decent alternatives, more so than used to be the case, but isn't that a good thing? We don't need a race where half the field are merely going through the motions, or running in it as an afterthought.
 
Grey said:
Apart from the horses that couldn't run because of the feed problem, there was no horse that could have won the Arc that was not in it. .
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Probably true but there's nothing wrong with calling it substandard if that's what it is. Sottsarse has never hit RPR 126 (the mark of a G1 horse) in his life, even yesterday. 'Proper' Arc horses would hit 130 sleepwalking.
 
Grey said:
It's a case of the glass being half empty or half full.

Apart from the horses that couldn't run because of the feed problem, there was no horse that could have won the Arc that was not in it. Tarnawa didn't run because connections doubted she was good enough, Love and Ghaiyyath because the conditions on the day would not have allowed them to perform to their best. These horses have decent alternatives, more so than used to be the case, but isn't that a good thing? We don't need a race where half the field are merely going through the motions, or running in it as an afterthought.
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Kinda can't have it both ways. Had Persian King and Stradivarius missed the race, it wouldnt have caused a moment of criticism. They were unlikely arc contenders. If only horses who are deemed to have a chance can run, we would be down to a half dozen runner field each year. Connections of Tarnawa look like they were incorrect. Anthony van dyck missed the race. Ghayyaith chose to go elsewhere. Magical could have run. Galileo Chrome would have been interesting. All would have added to the race and gone with some form of chance. (Forgetting about the O'Brien horses that were withdrawn).

Can remember when Godolphin ran Daylami even when they knew he was unsuited, same went for St. Jovite in his year. The Arc has become a race that you can afford to miss.
 
See the knockers are having their fix again!:rolleyes:
Outstanding horses only come along occasionally, as do outstanding races; regardless, the Arc remains the premier test, and richly deserves to.
 
Not an argument. Good set of clichés though.

Montjeu and sea the stars the only stallion winners of the race worth mentioning?
 
The 12f division is like Tennis. I like that sport but the domination of Federer/Nadal and Djoko is yawsville. I watched the last named in his match today and it was so predictable. Both players held serve until Nokak decided to break in the 8th game of set 1 and then it was over.
Galileo is the same for middle distance racing. When his final crop retires the division may become interesting again
 
Desert Orchid said:
Probably true but there's nothing wrong with calling it substandard if that's what it is. Sottsarse has never hit RPR 126 (the mark of a G1 horse) in his life, even yesterday. 'Proper' Arc horses would hit 130 sleepwalking.
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We can all agree that this was not a vintage Arc in terms of ratings, but the best middle distance horses in Europe were there to contest it and we can't demand more than that.

By the way, regarding the importance of the race for breeding, the mare Urban Sea who won this race as an outsider on bottomless ground, has had a bigger impact than many a decent sire.
 
Euronymous said:
Galileo is the same for middle distance racing. When his final crop retires the division may become interesting again
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Galileo has been brilliant for the breed. Strong stamina and willingness to fight.

I wouldn't go as far as to say he's raised the bar but he's produced plenty of middle-distance stayers who have increased competitiveness in the divisions. Without the likes of him we'd be seeing more emphasis on 8-10f horses and heading towards USA/Australia speedier types. 20 years down the line we'd be lamenting the decline of the breed and we'd be seeing mediocrity being the overwhelming trait of the average Derby winner and the Ascot Gold Cup would be won by hurdlers.
 
It seems to me that the OP is arguing that because of the absence of 3 horses - Love, Ghaiyyath and Magical - that this in some way indicates that the Arc has become an unimportant race in the calendar.

In my opinion this is, frankly, bollocks. Love was missing because of the ground, presumably with the thought that there is always next year. Ghaiyyath was missing because the likelihood that his race would be spoiled by coolmore runners was high and perhaps he's better over 10 - no shame there. Who knows why magical was missing, but connections 5 other entries, including a 72k supplement, strongly suggest that it wasn't because they believe the race to be an irrelevance in today's racing calendar.
 
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Grey said:
We can all agree that this was not a vintage Arc in terms of ratings
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Agreed.


Grey said:
but the best middle distance horses in Europe were there to contest it and we can't demand more than that.
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They weren't. The Coolmores could have been there and made more of a race of it. Ghaiyyath, the best middle-distance horse in the world, wasn't there. Logician wasn't there and he's better than Sottsass [in my book].

Obviously two of the best in Europe - on ratings - were there: Enable and Stradivarius but neither could go in the ground.

We got a jog-and-sprint school sports day event won by the horse with the best combination of tactics and ability to act in the conditions. Would anybody seriously argue that Yahoo was only 1lb inferior to Desert Orchid?
 
Seems to me it doesn’t matter what horses were there since the winner was always going to be the mud. Even with a full cast you could never have attributed the winner as the best horse in Europe, only that it was the one that had proved better at ploughing through the unusually deep going.
 
Desert Orchid said:
They weren't. The Coolmores could have been there and made more of a race of it. Ghaiyyath, the best middle-distance horse in the world, wasn't there. Logician wasn't there and he's better than Sottsass [in my book].

Obviously two of the best in Europe - on ratings - were there: Enable and Stradivarius but neither could go in the ground.

We got a jog-and-sprint school sports day event won by the horse with the best combination of tactics and ability to act in the conditions. Would anybody seriously argue that Yahoo was only 1lb inferior to Desert Orchid?
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Certain horses might be better than Sottsass in your estimation, but in the opinion of their connections they were not capable of winning this year's race. Otherwise they would have been there, it's not as if there is any other race they would rather win instead.

And before dismissing this year's winner it's worth remembering that Urban Sea was regarded as a dud winner at the time on account of her being an unexpected winner and the going being very similar to what we had on Sunday.
 
Grey said:
And before dismissing this year's winner it's worth remembering that Urban Sea was regarded as a dud winner at the time on account of her being an unexpected winner and the going being very similar to what we had on Sunday.
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Plenty of modestly-rated mares have gone on to prove themselves highly successful as broodmares. Urban Sea was a substandard winner but she was still a 120+ horse and plenty of those have not been successful, just as plenty of 126+ males have not been great stallions. Brigadier Gerard was no great shakes as a sire.

I don't think we're comparing apples with apples in terms of breeding potential.

Sadlers Wells was no superstar on the track - G1, yes, but nothing outstanding - but became one of the most sought-after stallions in a generation.
 
Timeform's view (their ratings tend to be about 5lbs higher than mine):


There were too many high-profile absentees for the 2020 Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe to fulfil its role as Europe’s middle-distance championship, Ghaiyyath and Love the two biggest names missing from a field which featured just two horses trained in Britain or Ireland, Enable and Stradivarius each lining up for John Gosden.

That pair headed the betting but found the way things developed counting against them, a steadily-run race on heavy going resulting in the slowest Arc since 1976, both horses already struggling to quicken when hampered over a furlong out. Enable ultimately weakened to finish sixth in her attempt to become the first three-time winner of the race, one place ahead of her stablemate.

Sottsass (127), on the other hand, was always perfectly placed and showed a good turn of foot to settle matters, ultimately beating In Swoop (126 from 117) by a neck, with Persian King (127), who dictated the modest pace, and Gold Trip (122 from 115) finishing hot on their heels.

The winner didn’t have to better the form that saw him finish third behind Waldgeist and Enable in 2019, a Timeform rating of 127 identifying him as a slightly below-average Arc winner. For context, the four-year-old fillies Solemia (123 in 2012) and Enable (126 in 2018) – both of whom received 3 lb from the older males – are the only winners to have achieved a lower rating this century, while his effort is on a par with that of the 2007 winner Dylan Thomas.

Runner-up In Swoop put up the best effort by a middle-distance three-year-old colt this year, paying a compliment to Mogul, who beat him here in the Grand Prix de Paris but was one of many Irish-trained runners withdrawn from Sunday’s card after testing positive for a banned substance found in contaminated feed.

In Swoop improved again on just his fifth career outing, relishing the testing conditions as he stayed on strongest of all to take second inside the final furlong. He won't run again this year and connections will no doubt be plotting a campaign that revolves around an attempt to go one better in 2021, even more progress as a four-year-old easy to foresee considering the trajectory of his form.

 
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