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1980's Barney Curley documentary

This may be a controversial and unpopular view, but I didn't like Barney Curley (not that he'd have cared), though tbf you could count the number of people I have ever actually liked in the racing and betting industry on the fingers of one hand, so he's in extensive company.

No amount of charity work or personal help for people struggling in the game could, in my opinion, make up for the way he operated.

If literally every trainer operated the way he did the whole sport would have surely collapsed.

As soon as I figured out what he was about I never had a bet on any race where he had a runner.

And as for that infamous interview, if any of them had a spine they would have told him he was actually a far bigger take-out merchant than any of them.

Some people idolise Runyonesque characters like Curley - I don't.

I'm not naive, I realise racing has its integrity issues, but he was beyond the pale for me and I could have had my card marked about every winner he ever had and I'd still think the same.

It's a very simple FACT, often conveniently forgotten, that, when someone lands a gamble, it's not just the bookies who lose - it's also every punter who had a bet on the race and wasn't in on the plot.

RIP and all that, but the sport is better off without people like him holding a licence.
 
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Ian_Davies said:
No amount of charity work or personal help for people struggling in the game could, in my opinion, make up for the way he operated.
Click to expand...

With that Ian I couldn't disagree more.

I've always played with pretty much a straight bat in life and as such have probably struggled a lot more than I would have done if I'd chosen a more corrupt path and those options were certainly available to me earlier in life. A lot of my friends at the time chose the other path and whilst I grafted and worked all the hours god sent just to get by they made there money ( a lot more than I was making) in a lot easier more corrupt way. Who's the fool ? Flash forward 30 years and here I am with a bust up broken body and lungs full of dust and living no too much different a life to your average shmuck.

As I've got older in life I take a view of people that they are either a net positive or a net negative in the world. I don't really know that much about Barney Curly and I've not yet watched that documentary. However I've obviously heard of famous gambles he's landed in a corrupt manner and also heard he's done lots for charity. For me if the charity work is genuine and true and I'd heard he'd raised and given millions to charities then that far outweighs any wrong doing. Cheats are everywhere in life in every sport, in every business and all around us and more often than not they prosper but I'd thinks it'd be rare they haven't just done it all for themselves.

I've personally tasted the pain of a corrupt gamble when Mick and Noel Quinlan pulled off a double at Lingfield some years back 2 horses with no recent form backed from double digits into short odds and both gagged up. Unfortunately it coincided with me having possibly my biggest ever each way double at the time on 2 horses in the same races and they both finished 2nd to the Quinlan plots. That money would of been a game changer to me at the time and I can fully understand your sentiments that they are robbing any punter who isn't in on the plot. However I'm sure if I knew every person who Barney had helped and every charity he's been involved with then I'd be of the opinion that it all was probably worth a few punters getting there fingers burnt.

I've made the point before of what makes a good person. Most people who are referred to as a good person are the obedient law abiding citizens who play with a straight bat. Go through life looking after themselves and maybe there immediate family and leave with world having done precious little else. However these same people are the ones who'd happily walk past someone in trouble on the street or just simply turn a blind eye to anything wrong in the world and keep their mouths shut so long as it doesn't effect them. The same sort of people who hoard toilet rolls in a crisis as long as they are alright f%*& everybody else. You usually find in times of crisis that the people who stand up, people who speak out, people who show bravery and kindness in times of trouble are people who have a bit of devilment in there personalities. You can't be a genuinely be a good person if your harmless and agreeable and jump up your own cackbox at the first signs of trouble or danger. I'd much rather be a rogue with a kind hand. Bend and break some rules if you have to in life but be kind enough to help others when you can and be strong enough and brave enough to stand up for those who can't help themselves.

Overall in life I'd say Barney Curly left the world in a bit better shape than he found it and from the view of life of "what's the point of all this!" that possibly is the best we can all hope for.

Barney Curly a net positive.
 
I’ve seen that Barney Curley interview a few times over the years. The last one I remember was on RTÉ, maybe around 2020. From memory, his tone was different in that one — more reflective, less self-satisfied. He spoke about the lack of correlation between money and happiness. Whether that interview can still be sourced, I don’t know.

The problem with romanticising people like Barney Curley is that, at the end of the day, he was cheating. Plenty in the game do the same thing, only without the public reverence. Ronan McNally, for example, is every bit as good a plotter as Curley ever was, but he lost his licence.

Racing and betting have a strange relationship with this whole issue. The Great Man can stop all the horses he wants. He doesn’t pay tax, and instead donates to causes of his choosing in Limerick, which insulates him from any real scrutiny. Curley and McManus get revered as almost mystical figures, yet McNally and others are branded cheats.

The only way to fix this long-term is simple but bold: bookmakers need to be cut out of the ecosystem entirely and replaced by a transparent pool system run for racing. Then you can cheat all you like — every bet would still have a visible impact on the starting price for everyone to see.
 
When I watch the Godfather or Sopranos I sometimes get envious of the 'real men, real courage, not give a phuck about societal convention' characterisation.

When Mrs AC notices the wistful look she reminds me that these people are just Fat Freddy Thomson or Daniel Kinehan with a vowel at the end of their names and a funny accent. Thieves, cheats and murderers and that if they lived in my community I wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire.

Not sure what this has to do with Barney, mind.
 
Slim said:
The only way to fix this long-term is simple but bold: bookmakers need to be cut out of the ecosystem entirely and replaced by a transparent pool system run for racing. Then you can cheat all you like — every bet would still have a visible impact on the starting price for everyone to see.
Click to expand...

Gets my vote.
 
an capall said:
When I watch the Godfather or Sopranos I sometimes get envious of the 'real men, real courage, not give a phuck about societal convention' characterisation.

When Mrs AC notices the wistful look she reminds me that these people are just Fat Freddy Thomson or Daniel Kinehan with a vowel at the end of their names and a funny accent. Thieves, cheats and murderers and that if they lived in my community I wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire.

Not sure what this has to do with Barney, mind.
Click to expand...

"notices the wistful look"

😂
 
Damon Runyon used to refer to what he called an "Underworld Complex," a condition suffered by people who find skulduggery romantic and even like to be on the periphery of it (though usually at a comfortable, safe, distance).

There are many in racing who love all the plot stuff - especially if they're in on it - it's what racing is all about for them.

While I'm well aware it goes on and, if I ever get live info, will happily pick up the money I just effectively found lying in the street, it's not what attracts me to racing and betting.

I still love the game DESPITE people like the late Barney Curley, not because of them.

But each to their own.

I think Slim again makes very salient points.
 
I really don't like cheats in sport and dishonesty generally, but I get Danny's point cos I do tend to think in terms of what's the net bottom line after all the +'s and -'s have been tallied up.
 
Slim said:
I’ve seen that Barney Curley interview a few times over the years. The last one I remember was on RTÉ, maybe around 2020. From memory, his tone was different in that one — more reflective, less self-satisfied. He spoke about the lack of correlation between money and happiness. Whether that interview can still be sourced, I don’t know.

The problem with romanticising people like Barney Curley is that, at the end of the day, he was cheating. Plenty in the game do the same thing, only without the public reverence. Ronan McNally, for example, is every bit as good a plotter as Curley ever was, but he lost his licence.

Racing and betting have a strange relationship with this whole issue. The Great Man can stop all the horses he wants. He doesn’t pay tax, and instead donates to causes of his choosing in Limerick, which insulates him from any real scrutiny. Curley and McManus get revered as almost mystical figures, yet McNally and others are branded cheats.

The only way to fix this long-term is simple but bold: bookmakers need to be cut out of the ecosystem entirely and replaced by a transparent pool system run for racing. Then you can cheat all you like — every bet would still have a visible impact on the starting price for everyone to see.
Click to expand...
I couldn't agree more.

The bookmakers are tantamount to robbers and should have no place in racing.

Pool is the way to go.
 
Slim said:
I’ve seen that Barney Curley interview a few times over the years. The last one I remember was on RTÉ, maybe around 2020. From memory, his tone was different in that one — more reflective, less self-satisfied. He spoke about the lack of correlation between money and happiness. Whether that interview can still be sourced, I don’t know.

The problem with romanticising people like Barney Curley is that, at the end of the day, he was cheating. Plenty in the game do the same thing, only without the public reverence. Ronan McNally, for example, is every bit as good a plotter as Curley ever was, but he lost his licence.

Racing and betting have a strange relationship with this whole issue. The Great Man can stop all the horses he wants. He doesn’t pay tax, and instead donates to causes of his choosing in Limerick, which insulates him from any real scrutiny. Curley and McManus get revered as almost mystical figures, yet McNally and others are branded cheats.

The only way to fix this long-term is simple but bold: bookmakers need to be cut out of the ecosystem entirely and replaced by a transparent pool system run for racing. Then you can cheat all you like — every bet would still have a visible impact on the starting price for everyone to see.
Click to expand...
I really can't believe McNally lost the licence simply for a few hooky plots and ownership issues. There has to be more to it.
 
Danny said:
With that Ian I couldn't disagree more.

I've always played with pretty much a straight bat in life and as such have probably struggled a lot more than I would have done if I'd chosen a more corrupt path and those options were certainly available to me earlier in life. A lot of my friends at the time chose the other path and whilst I grafted and worked all the hours god sent just to get by they made there money ( a lot more than I was making) in a lot easier more corrupt way. Who's the fool ? Flash forward 30 years and here I am with a bust up broken body and lungs full of dust and living no too much different a life to your average shmuck.

As I've got older in life I take a view of people that they are either a net positive or a net negative in the world. I don't really know that much about Barney Curly and I've not yet watched that documentary. However I've obviously heard of famous gambles he's landed in a corrupt manner and also heard he's done lots for charity. For me if the charity work is genuine and true and I'd heard he'd raised and given millions to charities then that far outweighs any wrong doing. Cheats are everywhere in life in every sport, in every business and all around us and more often than not they prosper but I'd thinks it'd be rare they haven't just done it all for themselves.

I've personally tasted the pain of a corrupt gamble when Mick and Noel Quinlan pulled off a double at Lingfield some years back 2 horses with no recent form backed from double digits into short odds and both gagged up. Unfortunately it coincided with me having possibly my biggest ever each way double at the time on 2 horses in the same races and they both finished 2nd to the Quinlan plots. That money would of been a game changer to me at the time and I can fully understand your sentiments that they are robbing any punter who isn't in on the plot. However I'm sure if I knew every person who Barney had helped and every charity he's been involved with then I'd be of the opinion that it all was probably worth a few punters getting there fingers burnt.

I've made the point before of what makes a good person. Most people who are referred to as a good person are the obedient law abiding citizens who play with a straight bat. Go through life looking after themselves and maybe there immediate family and leave with world having done precious little else. However these same people are the ones who'd happily walk past someone in trouble on the street or just simply turn a blind eye to anything wrong in the world and keep their mouths shut so long as it doesn't effect them. The same sort of people who hoard toilet rolls in a crisis as long as they are alright f%*& everybody else. You usually find in times of crisis that the people who stand up, people who speak out, people who show bravery and kindness in times of trouble are people who have a bit of devilment in there personalities. You can't be a genuinely be a good person if your harmless and agreeable and jump up your own cackbox at the first signs of trouble or danger. I'd much rather be a rogue with a kind hand. Bend and break some rules if you have to in life but be kind enough to help others when you can and be strong enough and brave enough to stand up for those who can't help themselves.

Overall in life I'd say Barney Curly left the world in a bit better shape than he found it and from the view of life of "what's the point of all this!" that possibly is the best we can all hope for.

Barney Curly a net positive.
Click to expand...
Great response Danny -I've said it before you have a great perspective on life.
 
I was always a Curley fanboy believing his charity work excused the gambles with a lot to spare.
We all know or think we know the Curley story but I was very interested in an interview he did with Nick Luck before he died. l would like to know the real story about his time in a seminary, the real story about why he went to Manchester with his father and most interestingly I would like to know the real story about the insurance company he ran in London that failed.
 

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