2014 David Nicholson Mares Handicap Hurdle?

T

treetangle

At the Start
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Surely this long overdue change has to come. What is it four or five seasons Quevega has been coming over for what has effectively been a penalty kick? Most of the time she has simply outclassed a bunch of handicappers. There are never going be enough top class mares to justify the race conditions. Too late in respect of Quevega but any future top class mares should be faced with the choice of conceding lumps of weight in this race or running in open company.
 
Three two and a half mile handicap hurdles at the Festival ? No thanks .

The first DN produced an absolute thriller between Refinement and Whiteoak . Leave well alone I say .
 
No point making it a Handicap - better to wait for more classy mares to compete in the race thanks largely to the new mares races that the BHA have introduced.

The race is getting better year on year and having a 160+ mare in the field is something we should relish seeing rather than attempting to dumb it down which would likely lead to her missing the race and the racing being a lot poorer for it.

Martin
 
Punters LOVE the race. They just lump on Quvega. It's of no interest to me until the day but its earnt it's place on the card in my opinion.
 
Me too. There is no substitute for class and I've loved watching Quevega over the last four years.
 
There is enough **** handicaps at the festival. I love that bookmakers and punters alike get to get stuck into a short one like Quvega. It's pure drama. The highlight of last years festival was the plunge/stand on Boston Bob in the Neptune. How can you not love a short one at the festival?
 
SlimChance said:
There is enough **** handicaps at the festival. I love that bookmakers and punters alike get to get stuck into a short one like Quvega. It's pure drama. The highlight of last years festival was the plunge/stand on Boston Bob in the Neptune. How can you not love a short one at the festival?
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Indeed , we could do with seeing the back of the Martin Pipe race and let the conditionals ride in the Kim Muir .
 
Agreed.........too many stocking fillers as it is. Cheltenham is about champions. Racing needs champions it thrives on them and she's a champion and a half....if you aint good enough to take her on go run at Sedgefield where ya belong...Handicap indeed:p
 
So basically you advocating the running of a walkover or very close to it.

The race has benefitted everyone connected with one horse and those who lump on at short odds. The ante-post market pre non-runner no bet has been ruined and the race itself has been so predictable it has become consistently boring. As I said Quevega will be out of the equation but she will just be replaced by another - things will not improve because there will never be enough top class mares to support the race. Like it or not that is a fact.

Champions are not made by consistently beating up vastly inferior rivals.
 
treetangle said:
So basically you advocating the running of a walkover or very close to it.

The race has benefitted everyone connected with one horse and those who lump on at short odds. The ante-post market pre non-runner no bet has been ruined and the race itself has been so predictable it has become consistently boring. As I said Quevega will be out of the equation but she will just be replaced by another - things will not improve because there will never be enough top class mares to support the race. Like it or not that is a fact.

Champions are not made by consistently beating up vastly inferior rivals.
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Are you predicting how this race will look over the next ten years? You have no idea what it will be like. Should all the Irish 2 mile Grade 1s be made handicaps because Hurricane Fly keeps farming them? Of course not. There are now huge incentives in Ireland to have mares in training with five new graded races. I think owners like Gigginstown and McManus, who have previously shown little or no interest in mares, may start buying a few at the store sales or on the track. There is prizemoney and prestige to be won now, so they may change tack. Willie Mullins is certainly doing well with his mares. So the race should only improve in overall quality and a mare like Quevega comes along every 10-15 years. Also, most owners would have gone for the World or Champion Hurdle at this stage with her. Voler won more prizemoney coming second in the World Hurdle than Quevega did winning the mares race.
 
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Not advocating a walkover at all - nor will I be advocating making the Victor Chandler or Game Spirit Chase a handicap when Sprinter Sacre turns up at 1/6, nor the Champion Hurdle when Istabraq won it three years on teh spin or the King George when Kauto Star won it 5 times.

We have enough handicaps and making the Mares Hurdle a handicap wouldn't be a great spectacle either - you'd likely have a substandard winner due to Quevega carrying top weight and not being overly big.

If Tarla wasn't in the same stable as her we'd have her in the mix in addition to VLV, Un Artiste, Kentford Grey Lady and co and we'd be looking at the best renewal of the Mares Hurdle this year - so the quality is getting better year on year and the new mares races in the UK and Ireland are helping that.

Martin
 
I think Arkle had a few walkovers in his time and he was the biggest draw in the history of NH racing.

Sprinter Sacre has already gotten to the stage where he has them running to the hills the minute his name is mentioned but fans adore the horse and flock to see him run.

Kasauto Star started odds on for 4 of his 5 King George wins and all 4 were all virtual walk overs he won so easily.

Quevega is an exceptional mare but I'm sorry you are wrong or at least it's very likely you are. There's no guarantee another will pop up as soon as she is gone and she has every right to be given a chance to be top mare in the British Isles as much as Arkle had to win his Gold Cups 2 of which were more like sleepovers than walkovers.

The first year the mares was run 12 turned out and 6 of those went off at 10/1 or less and the race was won by Whiteoak at 20/1 It was a very good race Chomba Womba went off fav Alan Kings Theatre Girl was well fancied having never been out the first 3 and Jonjo fancied the backside off his (Swine of a thing beat me for a packet).

The first 2 Quevega won were competitive enough heats for her to start at odds against. The last 2 have been pretty poor events but even the Champion Hurdle has had it's share of pretty poor in the past and the Gold Cup for that matter.

On the day it may well be a bit of a walkover but how is Quevega doing these days? Damned if I know and WM wouldn't be quick to tell anyone if she'd been working like a stuffed pig.

Great thing about Cheltenham is it starts on the Saturday the day after the last race has been run and that in itself is enough to say keep the race going.
 
Irish Stamp said:
Not advocating a walkover at all - nor will I be advocating making the Victor Chandler or Game Spirit Chase a handicap when Sprinter Sacre turns up at 1/6, nor the Champion Hurdle when Istabraq won it three years on teh spin or the King George when Kauto Star won it 5 times.

We have enough handicaps and making the Mares Hurdle a handicap wouldn't be a great spectacle either - you'd likely have a substandard winner due to Quevega carrying top weight and not being overly big.

If Tarla wasn't in the same stable as her we'd have her in the mix in addition to VLV, Un Artiste, Kentford Grey Lady and co and we'd be looking at the best renewal of the Mares Hurdle this year - so the quality is getting better year on year and the new mares races in the UK and Ireland are helping that.

Martin
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What about Zuzka Martin any idea's what he's got in mind for her?
 
Seems to be a complete vacuum of logical thought.

Yes, I am predicting future on what has happened in the past. You are lucky if you get two top class mares in a season. Fact.

If the race was a handicap this year Quevega would have a choice whether to compete off top weight (I suspect 90% or more of the others would still turn up) or run in another race, presumably the World Hurdle. How on earth is that dumbing down? It is making one race competitive and possibly adding to another. Easy pickings has enabled Quevega to avoid either a Champion Hurdle or World Hurdle challenge - how has that enhanced racing and the Festival?

What's Arkle got to do with it? Yes, he outclassed the opposition in conditions races but his reputation is essentially based on what he achieved in handicaps.

Week in week out there are too many handicaps on a Saturday, primarily to support the Scoop 6. That doesn't mean glorifying a restricted conditions race at the Festival which can never be properly supported.
 
treetangle said:
Yes, I am predicting future on what has happened in the past. You are lucky if you get two top class mares in a season. Fact.

If the race was a handicap this year Quevega would have a choice whether to compete off top weight (I suspect 90% or more of the others would still turn up) or run in another race, presumably the World Hurdle. How on earth is that dumbing down? It is making one race competitive and possibly adding to another. Easy pickings has enabled Quevega to avoid either a Champion Hurdle or World Hurdle challenge - how has that enhanced racing and the Festival?

What's Arkle got to do with it? Yes, he outclassed the opposition in conditions races but his reputation is essentially based on what he achieved in handicaps.

Week in week out there are too many handicaps on a Saturday, primarily to support the Scoop 6. That doesn't mean glorifying a restricted conditions race at the Festival which can never be properly supported.
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It shouldn't be a race at all. As treetangle points out, there is insufficient depth of quality to justify it's existence.

But that doesn't mean that there should be three 2 1/2 mile handicap hurdles at the festival either. The mares can run in one of the other 2 (or elsewhere should they choose to do so).
 
treetangle said:
Seems to be a complete vacuum of logical thought.
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Thats nice.....

Field sizes for Quevega's wins:

09 - 21
10 - 17
11 - 14
12 - 19

Short priced favourite every time but big fields and there has been a horse bigger than 20/1 in the places each time. There were horses placed at 50/1 and 66/1.

So there are opportunities for punters, owners, breeders and we get to crown a champion mare. She takes the boys on every year at Punchestown as well, winning 3 of those.

Its a bit like saying the stayers should be changed to a handicap to give everyone a chance against Big Bucks'.

Some of your logic is sound but its adjusted to a specific viewpoint and to say this is a vacuum of logical thought is frankly out of line and wide of the mark.
 
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Of course there will be no call for the King George or the World Hurdle to be changed to handicaps after Kauto and Big Bucks have dominated for years because those races have "tradition". When the Ryanair started people moaned that it would be a farce of a race. But it's turning out to be a good race year in year out and could be a cracker again this year. Admittedly it has taken away from the Gold Cup and Champion Chase but I would prefer to see 2m4f horses run over their proper trip together at 4/1 than over the wrong trip and be 20/1 outsiders as you know they can't win. The same is true for the mares race. You have to give it a chance to get some tradition behind it. There will be times when one horse dominates but some races are like that. Are we looking forward to a Sprinter Sacre domination for the next three years? Most would say yes!!
 
Tanlic said:
What about Zuzka Martin any idea's what he's got in mind for her?
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I'd imagine he'd be pot hunting for black-type again with her - there's plenty of Mares hurdles in Ireland for her without taking on Quevega at Cheltenham and then there's a Graded hurdle at Punchestown for her that he won with Tarla on her first outing in Ireland :)
 
treetangle said:
Seems to be a complete vacuum of logical thought.


What's Arkle got to do with it? Yes, he outclassed the opposition in conditions races but his reputation is essentially based on what he achieved in handicaps.
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What kinda daft question is that? Are we talking about championship races at Cheltenham or not?

Arkle had he not been injured could have won gawd only knows how many gold cups, most likely at least 6 taking it free from injury he would have retired at 12 years of age. If that had been the case should we have therefore made the Gold Cup a handicap?

Every championship race on the planet worth it's salt is run off level weights which is the only way to decide a real champion.

Just how many Quevega's do you think you get to the pound? When she"s gone like Big Buck's in this years World Hurdle the race suddenly will become wide open again.
 
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