3000 Not Out

I'm certainly not old enough to remember Fred Winter, so unable to comment there really.

With regards to best active jockey, I'd be more inclined to favour the likes of Ruby Walsh or Paul Carberry (at the top of his game) - but that's down to me favouring their style really.

His dedication is a testament to AP though. Look no further than the fact that he was back for last year's Festival so soon after his injury - remarkable.
 
One of the biggest factors in Winter's famous Grand Steeplechase de Paris was that Mandarin broke down with half a mile to go.

If, today, McCoy continued to ride a broken down horse for half a mile - including through a 9ft hedge - I wonder what the reaction would be?
 
Should have been pulled up though i'm not sure if the fence has been altered but in the modern age it sure as hell isn't a 9ft hedge.

I think we had an outcry when someone tried to ride an injured horse 10 yards over the line. A lifetime ban would happen in the modern era if Walsh, McCoy, Casey, Pieux, Gallagher etc. tried something like that in the 2009 renewal.
 
Thanks Gareth - I have the exact dimensions of it at home (along with some of the other major obstacles at Auteuil) so will try and find out for sure - 1.7-1.8m IIRC so that sounds about right :)
 
uncle goober said:
Beat me to it Gareth !! Should have pulled him up !
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Can someone please explain to me how you pull up a horse with no bit and the bridle half off its head? - esp when it has got through the race so far due to its own adrenalin-rush 'will to win' with no steering to speak of?

This assertion comes up every year and those close to FW at the time (inc Sir PO'S who was there on the day with him) think it's rubbish. The same injury occoured to McKelvey btw the year he came 2nd in the GN but his courage kept him going over the line. Horses as well as people do extraordinary things in the heat of battle

No-one who rode with or worked for or raced against him, ever accused Fred Winter of mis-treating a horse
 
Headstrong said:
Fred Winter was a greater jockey, by quite some way. And he won all his many Championships without ever hitting a horse. He carried a whip - and twirled it - but he never whipped them and was totally against the use of the stick, as a trainer too.
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No one here would ever suggest that Fred Winter would mistreat his horses, either when riding or training and I've never read anyone seriously suggest that Mandarin should have been pulled up in that epic race at Auteuil.

However.......

The notion that Fred Winter NEVER hit a horse in his career, and the assertion that he was completely opposed to the use of the whip as a trainer are completely and utterly ridiculous. I find your anecdotal sharings on the forum to be quite interesting on the whole (I couldn't give a monkey's about the alleged crime of namedropping, so long as it's not for self glorification), but you have a habit of stating certain things as facts which have no basis, either in truth or popular folklore.

Winter certainly wasn't whip happy, and as a rule preferred to employ a jockey capable more of finesse than brute strength, but I can assure you that despite his ability to get the most out of a horse with hands and heels, he didn't mind giving them a slap if the occasion demanded it. He may very well have instructed his jockeys to only use the whip on his charges after they had got the best from them by pushing and squeezing, but he certainly didn't discourage it entirely; indeed, he seemed perfectly happy when Peter Scudamore gave him his last big win on Celtic Shot in the 1988 Champion Hurdle, despite striking the horse at least fifteen times in the closing stages.
 
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