A question ...

redhead

At the Start
Joined
Mar 1, 2008
Messages
2,103
... for those involved in the racing/training/breeding sides of NH.

Has the comparatively recent trend of having a ready-to-race horse off the Flat completely killed off the old-fashioned store horse?

Having been a close follower of NH for over 30 years I have seen the size and shape of horses change so much - especially in the last 10-15 years. What would have been an average-sized chaser 10/15 years ago is now remarkable for its size in the paddock.

It seems that with the advent so many smaller ex-Flat horses moving into jumping, so many courses have had to amend their obstacles to suit them - rather than because the fences were actually unsafe - when the now old-fashioned jumpers managed them with comparatively few problems (poor jumping apart).

I would welcome your views.
 
Well, you've really got to split today's NH into two parts - hurdling, and chasing, redhead. Today, yes, as I've said on here and elsewhere for years, hurdling has been the next step for many ex-Flatties. Not a Flat Seller goes by where the auctioneer doesn't trundle out the now well-worn chestnut, "Nice big 'orse. Plenty of scope to him - bound to make up into a decent hurdler." I've bet sweets on it with our manager at Brighton! I've also been rather excoriating and called hurdling (in the UK) the dustbin of the Flat and, sadly, to a fair extent, it is. It's full of hastily under-schooled, badly-behaved, unsettled animals hurtling towards an early fall and probably a truncated career. Hurdles haven't been changed, though, because the horses got smaller. They've gone from the hateful flip-back flimsy crap to sturdier types where you either knock them dead flat or flip the foam top off - there's barely any backward flip to them now, which used to catch out back runners and tip them over, causing fatalities. Also, courses like Southwell have adopted the stuffed French hurdle, which is like a mini-chase jump, sturdy, stiff, and definitely not capable of being knocked flat.

As for chasers, you must be aware that many - especially the most powerful - yards are now between 40-60% French-bred. Still plenty of good Irish horses in them, too, but a paucity of British-breds. French-breds are trained from the moment they're backed. They're schooling over fences, small to start with, from the age of two, brought into hurdling at three, and away and over the chases from 4-5. If you watch any French jumps racing (not called National Hunt over there, of course), you'll see that the hurdling is over the stuffed obstacle, the chasing is over a magnificent array of obstacles, all representative of a day's hunting. Where we don't think of the French nation as hunters (which they are), they, not we - shame, shame! - have departed from our hunt-based heritage and now present our runners with two boring, similarly-constructed obstacles: the upright, and the not-very open ditch. The water jump's been reviled and many of our courses grassed theirs over, leaving most of our animals with round after round of the same old stuff.

Again, chase fences were adapted due to high fatalities and, due to the ever-increasing high visibility of these on television from every angle, the need to present spectacles such as the Grand National as more of an extreme test, than an ordeal to be borne. The BHA has recently launched research into why certain fences at certain courses seem to cause more difficulties to horses, and that's why small mods were made at Cheltenham, with good effect this year.

So, in hurdling you may see some imported French-bred hurdlers or horses who've been bred from earlier generations - LINAMIX being a very popular and talented choice. You'll also see loads of ex-Flatties of various shapes, sizes, and abilities.

You'll see in chasing a large proportion of French imports, as you know - KAUTO STAR and his star rivals being fine examples. Big girth, good height, not particularly wide-chested between the front legs, good shoulder. If imported, they're ready-made, ready-to-run, used to tackling a variety of heights, widths, banks, walls, the bullrush (jump right through the reeds), etc., making them very sure-footed. 16.2-17 h.h. is not unusual.

You'll see plenty of stout Irish-breds, too, from good jumps stock. BOB BACK's progeny continue to do him proud. Usually wider-framed than the French, great stayers on the soft. They're used, if they're imports, to the ups and downs of the undulating Irish NH courses, so they're not usually in any trouble at ours. Around the 16-16.2 hh mark. You don't need 'em taller!

British-breds of the olde hunting type of up to the 1950s have declined, yes. That's because speed has become more the essence of British jumps racing and their huge stamina - great girth, short cannons - has been sidelined to the extreme staying races, which are very few, and where the French and Irish have outnumbered them.

There was also a brief flirtation with NZ-breds in the 1990s, all imported geldings, the best of whom was LORD GYLLENE winning the Grand Nasty in 1997. They've been a bit iffy, to be honest - one or two sparklers, the rest no better than average.

What's interesting now is the gradual increase in using some very good German-breds, and the introduction of Eastern-European racers, like Polish-breds. I had the great pleasure of going to the Velka Pardubice a few years ago and seeing the redoubtable mare REGISTANA winning again under the German jockey, Peter Gehm, tragically paralyzed a few months later on Christiaan von der Recke's gallops. She was, like the other Eastern European horses attending, wiry and very strong. Not particularly tall, but immensely agile and athletic. That may well be the way we'll be heading in ten years' time, since everything evolves to meet the changing demands of racing.
 
Thanks Krizon for such a generous answer.

I remember the NZ-breds well – Seagram won me a packet in the GN - and think there was also a very brief flirtation with USA-breds around the same time due to a visit by the American star steeplechaser LONESOME GLORY.

I don't have too much time to spend on form reading and watching racing these days (the NHS expect blood as well as sweat from their admin staff these days) and discarded an interest in hurdling for the very reasons that you have pointed out. (I blame Martin Pipe!)

There are some gems to be found among the ex-Flat hurdlers - ISTABRAQ being the prime example - but until the major races/meetings start rolling during the NH season, there seem to be huge fields of mostly mediocre horses in that division and lack of time means that I cannot sift through them all.

Chasers have always been my main interest and what you have pointed out is pretty much as I had thought regarding the French-breds. Maybe their lack of width across the chest makes them seem smaller than they actually are.

Certainly, their lack of bulk and excellent jumping ability suits the preference for speed in chases these days - but has this been at the expense of stamina on the whole, rather than with a few exceptions?

Looking at the GN results since 1970, the British-breds dominated until 2001 – Red Marauder being the last, with the Irish taking over from then on. Mon Mome is the first French-bred winner since 1970 – possibly the first ever? Someone correct me if I’m wrong.

It would be a great pity to see NH going the way of the Flat in giving precedence to speed over stamina. That being the case, how long would it be before the GN, Gold Cup and similar races that require both speed and staying power are shortened to accommodate the faster but less enduring horses that might eventually dominate the sport?

:eek: Quelle horreur!
 
I'd love to know where you get your figures from Kri - I can't for the life of me see how 40-60% of chasers are French bred.
 
I said that many - especially the most powerful - yards have a 40-60% ratio of French-breds, Shadow. That's not all yards, some may have 10% and tinier yards may favour the Irish, but it's Nicholls's and King's, for starters. You can access the stats by looking at the animals listed on their own websites, a quick trawl of HiT, and any of the other multitude of data which you, of all people, should have at your disposal. Last time I totted up, Nicholls was 60% and King was 40%, with next most-favoured line the Irish-breds. British stock negligible.

Redhead - these are only my own observations, of course, but it would need a true anorak, which I'm not, to give you some stats and facts on whether there were more staying races say, 10 years ago, than there are today. There is, as we know, a helluva lot more jumps racing, 'thanks' to the advent of the summer card, making it an all-year pursuit and no longer tied to its hunting heritage any more than its obstacles are. Because of the extension of the jumps programme throughout what should be a time of hot weather, I suspect that what there is are lots of 2m 4f chases and very few over 3m. The ground also goes against distance races if it's gone to Good or G to F. Most horses don't like the jar of impact on landing, even if they can manage a lengthy gallump. There'll always be a tiny amount, though, whose owners or trainers insist that they love Firm ground, hence the summer programme has been embraced, albeit by poor to medium quality animals. Fortuitously, the promising ones and the good ones aren't brought out until the 'proper' season starts to get into gear, and then as the ground softens (or should!), longer distances start to appear more often, too.

But we do have a vastly expanded jumps card compared to the periods of time you mention, thus many more races, many more horses of types which once would have been seen as laughable entrants.
 
But Kri, don't you think that is a flawed way of looking at things? It doesn't accurately represent the spread of French bred, British bred, Irish bred and others in the industry the way you appear to me to be suggesting.
 
Since 1 Jan 2008 there have been 56,621 runners in British jumps races (same horse might have run several times)...the breakdown is as follows...

IRE = 25,490
GB = 20,935
FR = 6,972
USA = 1,626
GER = 1,118
Others = 480
 
In the same period Paul Nicholls had 1020 runners - 489 were French bred, 336 Irish and only 148 British.
 
Thanks for your hard work, Mounty. Interesting to see that the Irish-breds still hold sway overall.

It may be that the preponderance of French-breds in the Nicholls yard is down to the spending power of his owners, or that they conform to a particular type of physique that he favours.

Did you use something like Raceform Interactive to get those figures, Mounty?
 
Could I be a total pain in the arrrrm and ask if you could get the figures for all class 1 and 2 NH races and - if, possible, for all NH races over 3m+?

Tell me to bog off if I'm being too cheeky. :)
 
Mounty, there are horses which come out several times in a season, because they're poor animals and aren't saved up for the top-class races, where they may appear only two or three times. I appreciate you throwing the numbers in, but what's needed is not the number of times a nag's been on a track, but the number of French-bred, Britain-based horses versus the same for British. I will contest that there are far more French-breds in good stables, aimed at good races, than there are British, which is what the topic was kicking off about - the loss of the typical British type. The stats don't contribute to the discussion about the loss of one type and the ascension of another.

Secondly, my dear cherms, it might occur to you that the preponderance of the NH French-breds are at the higher levels of performance (in general terms, before I'm skewered again) - they aren't imported to run in shite class races, where there are plenty enough of poor Irish and British breds.

Another way to look at it is this: pick up your race cards from Cheltenham. Gold Cup Day, 16 runners:

French: 9 - every one of them based in Britain, no visitors.
Irish: 5 - every one of them based in Britain, no visitors
UK: 1 - as above
Germany: 1 - as above

The French dominate the very best of British NH - that's what I was talking about in terms of 'the most powerful yards' being heavily-tilted to the French-breds. The Irish came over from Ireland in numbers for the Festival, but they were visiting animals, which is a vastly different stat from UK-based, Irish-bred nags.

Mounty, your numbers no doubt also reflect visiting Irish (and probably visiting Polish and German) horses, which skew your stats, unless your figures are specifically based on animals living and working in the UK at the time of those runs.

I thought this topic was about animals in NH where there has been a sloughing-off of the atypical British 'traditional' type, and that's what I was discussing in detail, and I still hold there has been, with large numbers of French-breds now being ensconced in the better stables for the better races. There's the odd not-so-great among them, racing in middle-range contests, but if you want to discuss not the quantity of runs per nationality of horses (which doesn't prove ratios, I'm afraid), then please take that up as a separate topic. You can have had a million runs by Irish horses, but if those figures include the many visitors we get, they're irrelevant, and if they fail to demonstrate numbers of horses per se in, if you can keep to my post, 'the more powerful yards'.

Anyway, I'm out on this - I often see a tendency on here to want to throw in irrelevancies to prove some sort of point-scoring, instead of progressing a discussion with one's own and original thoughts.
 
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Why don't you do this bit of research for yourself, Toobe? There are hundreds of French-breds in the UK, so have a bit of fun for a few days. Just remember that it's nothing to do with the nationality of the sire or the dam which determines its nationality, it's where it is born. Thus, EXOTIC DANCER, by an American sire out of a French mare, but bred by a French stud in France - is French. BARBERS SHOP is by an Irish sire out of a British mare, bred by the Queen - and is British. MOVES GOODENOUGH is by a US sire out of an Irish mare but bred in the UK - and therefore British. And so on. Knock yourself out!
 
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Krizon, there is no point scoring going on here, or irrelevancies thrown in; more that people cannot believe your figures since they don't ring true. As I said, the limited amount of data you are relying upon is a flawed way of coming up with your assertion that 40-60% of chasers in top yards are French; they're not. No-one is arguing that there are a lot of French bred horses about but your assertions are wildly out, no matter which misleading amounts of 'data' you want to fling about.
 
The size and physique of NH horses now as compared to 10/15 years (and more) ago was the original question, but the diversion is interesting.
 
I'll possibly come back to this later - I've been onto Weatherbys today to see if they'll give us, free of charge (which isn't that likely), a programme which will show how many French-bred, Irish-bred, British-bred and AN Other-bred chasers are based in the UK at present. This is really because I'm interested in seeing how the tilt to non-British standard types has prevailed - which everyone I spoke to this morning agreed had happened.

I have not said that there are more French-breds in the UK. I said that there was a higher proportion of them in 'the more powerful yards'. Regrettably, numbers of runs includes all NH, including multiple runners, runners in crap hurdles races (which means dozens of Flat-breds, nowt to do with chasing), visiting horses which don't count - keeping to Redhead's remit to muse upon the changing frame of the British-bred chaser, I think we can agree (which will be a minor miracle in itself) that the old type, based on a horse which used to go off hunting between its racedays, is over and done with. The French animals aren't made for long careers, either, so there's no point in hoping to see any of them around much beyond 8 or 9, 10 tops. Certainly not those who've performed at the top of the tree. That they might go falling down the handicaps so that they can, THE NEWSMAN-like, still be ploughing round muddy gaffs at 14, is highly unlikely!

If we stick to chasers, stick to what is living in the UK, we can come up with some registered figures, but I'm not going to pay Weatherbums more than £25 to get the data, tbh. If any of you want to pay for a higher quote when I get it (they'll have to run us a programme), I'll give you a name and number to pursue.
 
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Just for balance peeps

This is what Krizon actually said.


"As for chasers, you must be aware that many - especially the most powerful - yards are now between 40-60% French-bred".

I suspect the semantics of the point hinges on your interpretation of the words "many" and "especially" which is used to qualify the 40% - 60%. One's a general term ("many") which Andrew's stats wouldn't support, but the 40% - 60% figure seems to be restricted to chasers from the powerhouse yards (still on the high side I'd have tought). At 51% of course, many would become the majority, but that's another issue:whistle:
 
If PJN is the leading exponent of this trend, then it's fair to assume he sets the benchmark? For my sins, and because I'm putting off doing something else, I've trawled through his website to find 142 horses listed as being in training for 2009-10 with 2 unnamed. Of those the following were listed as French bred

Andreas, Benarcat, Big Bucks, Bold Addition, Chapoturgeon, Colombard, Dear Villez, Five Dream, Free Word, Gwanko, Hells Bay, Hoo La Baloo, Kauto Star, Le Duc, Masterminded, Michel Le Bon, My Will, Nakai, Natal, Naprtunes Collonges, Nevada Royale, New Little Bric, Nictory Vote, Nozic, Nycetos, Oslot, Oumeyade, Pacho Douclaires, Penneilis, Petite de Soliel, Pertinent, Play On Words, Predateur, Poquelin, Pride of Dulcote, Qozak, Quell The Storm, Quiedo De Touzaine, R de Rien Sivola, Raffaello, Recief de Thaix, Roby de Cimbre, Round Tom, Royal Auclair, Royal Charm, Sedani, Shamari, Star de Mohaison, Super Foreman, Take the Breeze, Takeroc, Tatanino, Tateten, Tchico Polos, The Nightingale and Twist Magic


Total = 55
= 38.7% or 38.2% if the unnamed horses are counted.

However, I haven't broken this down into chasers (nor will I try to) but on this limited snap shot sample.......?
 
I received an email from Krizon earlier, explaining that she paid a fee to Weatherby's to obtain information about the different countries of origin of UK chasers registered in training for the last three seasons. She had difficulties opening the attachment so asked would I mind posting it up. Here goes!

Ok, it's not working in this format since it is in a table. I'll re-format.
 
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2006/2007Birth Country TotalArgentina3Australia6Canada1Czech Republic1France444Germany46Great Britain1,157Holland1Ireland1,658Italy2Japan2New Zealand22Poland5Slovakia1South Africa2Spain1Switzerland1United Arab Emirates1USA70Zimbabwe1Grand Total3,425

2007/2008Birth Country TotalArgentina1Australia6Belgium1Denmark1France528Germany54Great Britain1,072Ireland1,615Italy1Japan1New Zealand18Poland3Slovakia1Sweden1Switzerland2United Arab Emirates3USA68Zimbabwe1Grand Total3,377

2008/2009Birth Country TotalArgentina2Australia3Belgium2Czech Republic2France544Germany60Great Britain1,078Holland1Ireland1,616Italy1New Zealand16Poland3Slovakia1South Africa1Sweden1Switzerland1United Arab Emirates1USA80Grand Total3,413
 
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