Any Spare Diesel, Anyone?

Desert Orchid

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Bosses f*cking us up.

Let's hope they can resolve this one...

Maybe I'm misinterpreting it, but this strikes me as pig-headed high-handedness by managers.

First they want to drastically alter pension arrangements and when the workforce objects they refuse to alter their stance. The workers threaten to strike so the bosses threaten to close the plant, citing H&S. (Yeah, right.)

The media gets hold of it and suddenly there's panic buying - unnecessarily since stocks weren't a problem - but of course the managers knew this would happen.

Fortunately, I filled up yesterday as usual but a tankful only gets me four return journeys to work with about 50 miles' worth to spare (I do 850-1000 miles per week). If the garages do run out of petrol by the end of the week I won't be able to get to work.

Wouldn't that be a real pity! Let's hear it for the managers!!
 
Thiw was on breakfast tv at some ungodly hour this morning. From what I remember the workers at this, the only refinery in Scotland,have one of the best pension schemes going and don't actually make any contribution themselves. The managers want new employees to contribute as they join.
The refinery produces other chemicals as well, not just fuel.

Both managers and unions seem to be accusing the other of not agreeing to sit down and talk with ACAS.

The way it was explained was that if the workers are going to strike it's not just a question of turning everything off there and then, there has to be a sequence and temperatures have to drop before the next sequence etc so management have already started that sequence so that everything will be off if there is a strike but of course this is costing money even now.

There was a plea not to fill up tanks unless absolutely necessary so ensuring any disruption is kept to a minimum.
 
Originally posted by Diamond Geezer@Apr 21 2008, 07:39 PM
There was a plea not to fill up tanks unless absolutely necessary so ensuring any disruption is kept to a minimum.
I'm sure that should read "so ensuring that is precisely what people would do" :rolleyes:
 
A garage in Kirkcaldy is charging £1.45 per litre for diesel.

The assistant refuses to divulge the owner's name for fear of losing her job and says the owner is in hospital.
 
Originally posted by Desert Orchid@Apr 23 2008, 08:39 AM
A garage in Kirkcaldy is charging £1.45 per litre for diesel.
Probably be that by about September everywhere in the UK. On the radio today I heard that the Yanks were complaining because diesel across there was 59p per litre!!! Sick of this rip off country & would emigrate if I could afford. :suspect:
 
The gf's ex is a tanker driver for Tesco. Said all the wagon's from the north are being diverted up to Scotland from this weekend to combat the shortage. Meaning it is likely to start becoming scarce down here from next week. The price jumped 5p a litre last week for no reason, and he reckons 120 a litre will be here in the next few weeks as they push the prices up knowing people have to pay it as it will be in short supply. I'm off out to fill up as I'm on less than a quarter of a tank now.
 
Anyone else ever use the pay at the pump at Tesco? It authorises you to dispense £60 of fuel by putting the card in at the pump and just reading it (not chip and pin like some), I remember thinking when it first came out why the hell would they set it at £60, it would be only the odd gas guzzler that would need that much on petrol.... Made me smile when I had to stop at £59.95 the other day when I still had an 1/8th of a tank to go...
 
Bosses f*cking us up???

My understanding, admittedly without full chapter and verse, is that these workers have a superb pension scheme far better than that available to the vast majority of workers in the private sector.
Because of generous past contributions, from the employer only, and good management of the underlying fund, there was a surplus in the fund beyond that calculated to be required to meet obligations. Was it unreasonable for the sole contributor to take back some of his cash?

Secondly the proposed rule changes would only apply to new employees, no impact whatsoever to existing employees. My former employer operated a similar scheme and introduced similar measures over 10 years ago. In the last decade the great majority of private sector pension schemes have introduced the same changes.

As one who normally views this kind of dispute with an initial inclination towards the side of the employees I see scant reason to support these workers who seem just too ready to exercise their power to cause major disruption.
 
My understanding, admittedly without full chapter and verse, is that these workers have a superb pension scheme far better than that available to the vast majority of workers in the private sector.

Yes. So what? It was agreed many years ago, presumably when relations between workers and managers were very harmonious. It's a fantastic scheme for the workers but managers shouldn't be allowed to withdraw it unilaterally, which was the original intention.


Because of generous past contributions, from the employer only, and good management of the underlying fund, there was a surplus in the fund beyond that calculated to be required to meet obligations. Was it unreasonable for the sole contributor to take back some of his cash?

No, it wasn't unreasonable in my opinion, but two points:
a) If there was plenty of money there, why not use it to maintain the pension deal with new workers, thus continuing to attract high calibre candidates to the plant?
b) I haven't read anywhere that the union was disputing this point anyway.


Secondly the proposed rule changes would only apply to new employees, no impact whatsoever to existing employees. My former employer operated a similar scheme and introduced similar measures over 10 years ago. In the last decade the great majority of private sector pension schemes have introduced the same changes.

This didn't emerge until the ACAS talks the other day. Until then the rule changes were to apply to all workers. I don't have a problem - and netiher should the union - with a new rule being struck for new employees.


As one who normally views this kind of dispute with an initial inclination towards the side of the employees I see scant reason to support these workers who seem just too ready to exercise their power to cause major disruption.

From the items I've read, it was the bosses who threatened the employees that they (the bosses) would bring the country to its knees if the employees went ahead with industrial action and use their PR machinery to lay the blame with the employees, to which the employyes responded by digging their heels. (I'll try and find the article and post a link.)

Clearly there is a breakdown in trust between two sets of self-interest and, as ever, it is we punters who end up suffering.
 
I must admit Dessie, I'm increasingly of the opinion that there isn't some kind of sub plot to this one as I'm far from certain this is the classic workers versus management conflict. It strikes me that the oil companies stand to do very well out of this too. It's almost as if some kind of Fauistian pact has been struck. The management provoke the workforce by renegaging on an agreement, which in turn allows them to orchestrate a situation which disrupts the country and helps to destablaise the government. It's the Treasury who'll be losing £50M a day afterall. The sale of petrol isn't going to be damaged, and if anything it's going to go up for a short while. Not only will sales rise, but so will the price, in line with a speculative bubble amid rumours of scarce supplies running out.

I can't quite put my finger on it, but something doesn't seem right about the whole way its been conducted. It's almost as if the company want the workforce to strike. It's as if the management have realised that they have a politically potent weapon in the form of their own workforce and can see their chance to exert pressure and influence thus
 
Originally posted by Warbler@Apr 26 2008, 09:27 AM
I can't quite put my finger on it, but something doesn't seem right about the whole way its been conducted. It's almost as if the company want the workforce to strike. It's as if the management have realised that they have a politically potent weapon in the form of their own workforce and can see their chance to exert pressure and influence thus
Yes. I think so too although I wouldn't quite go so far as read too much into the political motives. (I'm much more naïve than you :) )
 
I share your suspicion, Warbler. It certainly does look as if the company said to the union "bring it on".
 
It's just something I can't quite put my finger on about the whole thing. Normal practice is for one side to claim that the strike has received universal support and is causing widespread disruption, and the other side to deny it. It's as if the management here are positively revelling in the chaos that they can cause and are making no attempt to undermine the action.

I'm reminded of the so called fuel protesters and the atitude that the oil companies displayed then. After a few days we realised that the H&S concerns about refusing to allow tankers to leave depots was a ruse. They could have got the fuel out if they wanted to, but whether it was for reasons of political expediency or bare faced commercial self-interest they hardly made an effort, whilst the pressure mounted on the government, and the pump price went ever higher. There seems to be a similar sentiment running through this one. It just has a feel about it being co-ordinated
 
Last night Radio 5 (that most esteemed purveyor of the inflammatory phone in for the partially informed) decided to run a feature on this dispute. Surprise, surprise, no mention of pension funds, but instead a series of fuel transport companies, road haulage companies, forecourt operatives laced with the odd angry from Ongar. The agenda? The rising cost of fuel. :suspect:

This morning the BBC web site is carrying stories that Ineos are saying that it will take 3 weeks to get back into full production, (in other words talking up supply side difficulties and trying to fuel a panic buy scenario). In addition they're also saying the plant needs £750M of new investment or otherwise 650 jobs will go. :suspect: Is this really the Union behind this dispute I'm increasingly wondering? Who might have the most gain?

I thought I'd do a bit of digging around. Ineos is two thirds owned by a reclusive and mildly eccentric Engineer come financier called Jim Ratcliffe, who is variously ranked between 10th and 50th in different 'rich lists'. Surprisingly he's resident in the UK and the company is registered in Lyndhurst, Hamsphire. I couldn't find any attributable political affiliation but he does have previous in terms of making demands on the government for tax payers money in return for not closing plants and thus safeguarding jobs.

In 2001 he brought ICI's Chlorine business at Runcorn and duly asked for £300M off the Treasury to keep it open or otherwise he would shut it with the loss of a significant number of jobs. In the end he walked away with a cool £50M of our money (the risks that the private sector take hey :rolleyes: ). Last March he managed to extract £9M off the Scottish Executive in order to safeguard 410 jobs at Grangemouth. Perhaps it should come as no surprise then to hear him demanding £750M now, whilst holding a gun to the plants head. Is this really about a pension fund I'm wondering, or is it much more to do with the needs and demands of Ineos? Afterall, where has the figure of a government loss of £50M a day come from? Answer? Ineos. 15 days of lost preoduction equals the same shortfall in the Treasury's coffers that Ratcliffe is asking for by way of subsidy for risk investment that he'd rather transfer to us, even though he walks away with the profit.

The Ineos success story has largely been underwritten by aggresive and very opportune purchases of surplus options from a variety of industry competitors in both chemicals and petro chemicals. This has been financed by incurring huge debt estimated to be £9Bn, with Barclays Capital, Merrill Lynch and Morgan Stanley being responsible for over half of it (more of the latter named later, provided I can clarify a few things, as a little light went on when I unearthed their involvement, but need to make a few phone calls).

The pension fund at the centre of all this (allegedly), as I'm increasingly of the opinion that the whole dispute has been orchestrated by the commercial needs and financing requirements of Ineos, was actually one they inheritted from BP when they brought Grangemouth, and did so in the full knowledge. The borrowing they've undertaken and debt they've run up appears to have left a 'black hole' in the fund of £410M. There are other allegations that £40M has been pilfered from it (which is my 2 + 2 = 5 moment).

Now the pump price for fuel has been in the headlines, and there's no shortage of cheerleaders out there ready to do Ineos's bidding for them and apply pressure to the government at this opportune moment (as witnessed on radio 5). Ineos themselves have done little other than to talk up the level of disruption, in stark contrast to most disputes when the management normally adopt a contrary position. My understanding is that fuel is brought in advance too, so if you were able to buy it cheaply in the knowledge that you could manipulate a price rise at a later date, you're not going to be out of pocket.

By refusing to honour the agreement (safe in the knowledge that the union would respond in accordance with their members interests) and then talking up servere disruption to the supply chain, whilst simultaneously filibustering the union, you would have no difficulty manipulating a price rise at the pumps. This in turn will quickly translate into angry motorists, joe public and other affiliated industries such as haulage blaming the government and greedy workers (workers who incidentally aren't making any new demands other than simply wanting to have an existing agreement honoured - that's conservative rather than radical in my book). The inherent weaknesses of JIT supply will quickly ensure the vulnerability of the chain, and any costs will be passed onto the consumer in retail prices and crank up the pressure further on the government if the public aren't able to put the pieces together and work out whats going on.

I'd suggest that the pension fund is a detail, and that this is all about Ineos geting themselves into a negotiating position in recognition of the fact that they're over borrowed and are trying to screw investment out of the public purse (the level of which dwarfs the pension fund).

The usual suspects who were quick to condem the greedy workers, and praise the marvellous management and shower the unapproachable probity and moral integrity of capitalism might like to consider this possibility shrug::
 
Excellent post Warbler. On a different note I strongly suggest it's time Britain take the lead by finding (or using) the alternative forms of transport we have. If we all cut out the ridiculous journeys we might be in a better financial/enviromental position. I don't drive, and i'm sick and tired of being told "you need to drive" and driving "is a good thing to have". Makes me feel like a right imbecile and at the end of the day I like cycling and don't mind using buses in my particular area. Driving is becoming like owning houses, a mugs game, your better off in a council house where you get all your services looked after (free comby boilers and all) just as much as you are cycling rather than driving.
 
Try living in a village on top of a hill which has no shop, c. one bus a day, no trains and is at least 5 miles from the nearest town! Driving pretty much becomes unavoidable then.
 
Originally posted by Shadow Leader@Apr 27 2008, 07:09 PM
Try living in a village on top of a hill which has no shop, c. one bus a day, no trains and is at least 5 miles from the nearest town! Driving pretty much becomes unavoidable then.
As I said in my first post, i'm talking about ridiculous and needless journeys. There's nothing wrong with people who have to drive driving, but lets not pretend your example is representative of most drivers. Most drivers are utter tossers who when told in Scotland over the last few days "don't go out and stock up loads of fuel" do the exact opposite. It's this culture of driving that I don't like, and although it's a must for some it's surely got out of control now Shadow Leader?
 
One thing is for sure - the idiots who are filling up every spare container they have with petrol to stock it up will be the same ones who drive 20 miles a week, and all that on local journeys! So we're in agreement on that one!!
 
Interesting points here. Personally I am fortunate enough to live within walking distance of the centre of town and also my workplace so I am without a car and currently not directly affected by the fuel problems. However, as Shadow Leader points out not everyone is in that position and sometimes public transport isn't suitable for getting to work/shops/school/college etc. I've just spent a few days at home with my parents in North Wales where the village has no shop, post office etc etc. The nearest mainline station is about 45 minutes away which meant my dad kindly gave me a lift - if I'd tried to get to the station by public transport it would have increased my entire journey time by around 3-4 hours. Since I'm now at home and can easily get to work/shops etc I do walk or use public transport as much as I can but trying to do things like get to the local stables or anywhere that's not on a bus or train route is a nightmare so as much as I try to be environmentally minded I often think how much easier life might be if I bought another car.

I feel sorry for everyone affected by the fuel problems - hope it's all sorted out soon.
 
I liked one comment I read about this:

An unelected PM, rampant inflation and queues at petrol stations - Is this the UK or Zimbabwe?
 
So are we saying it's impossible to live without having a car then? What a sad state of affairs and waste of money all them billions were that were spent on improving public transport.

Don't get me wrong, I get lifts sometimes but I don't see why i'm a hypocrite for stating the obvious; Far too many people are driving and some of it has to be unnecessary. The biggest thing that comes out of this is what betsmate has partly illuded to, in what a damning indictment this is on the government; Spent billions on an aim that could never be achieved. Maybe they have improved public services, but from what I here paying 2 pound for a bus in London no matter where you go seems like a joke, and giving free bus passes to "children" is leading to gangs roaming round the city on buses committing crimes at their various destinations. All I can say is I hope they get rid of Livingstone.

I suppose what it really comes down to we do whats best for ourselves, like the greedy, selfish and un-enviromental group of people we are and sod the consequences. Have we not learnt from the "credit crunch" that we're now in that we will all feel the consequances of are actions at some point? In this case borrowing off a cliff edge......
 
London Bus is 90p regardless of distance, as long as you use an Oyster. It actually came down from £1 last year, which must be a first for public transport in a major city.

Car driving is just one of those ingrained cultural things that no alternative will be able to compete with no matter how bad the traffic jams or no matter how expensive the fuel becomes.

Personally, I find it bizarre that cars are almost all over-specified, over-sized, unwieldy and still based on technology from 100 years ago and would ban them in a stroke, but that's just one of the many reasons why I'd never be mayor of London :)
 
Originally posted by Gareth Flynn@Apr 27 2008, 08:08 PM
London Bus is 90p regardless of distance, as long as you use an Oyster. It actually came down from £1 last year, which must be a first for public transport in a major city...
But if i went down to London now and only needed one bus journey what would I pay Gareth, 90p or £2? (and didn't do what the nanny state wanted me to do and get an "oyster"). Screw oysters they'll be selling them in Tesco's next......

Affordable and accessible bus tickets for all, that what should be happening.....
 
That's a bit of a sad way to look at it. One of the biggest cities in the world, with a massively busy transport infrastructure, comes up with a simple and convenient payment option that works across the entire network and both saves money - savings which are for once actually passed on to the customer - and helps speed up the flow of commuters, and you get people being paranoid about it and considering it a tool of the nanny state.

If you're coming down to London, get an Oyster as soon as you get here. I think you have to pay £3 up front, which is refundable. Use it twice and you'll have saved money, even if you never use it again.
 
I lived in London for the first 18 years of my life, i'm now 22 and absoloutley thrilled I left. As for not being a mayor the way you just ducked my question i'd suggest you'd be a very good one! My info comes from a bus driver who's been doing his trade for 20 years, I find his insight helpful and the tales of his young son getting chased for hours on end by gangs puts me off wanting to live there, along with the cost of living. My auntie go's on about "oysters" a lot, as if this is something to be proud of. The last time I was there the bus was so packed I felt like I was having a panic attack by the time I got off. Forcing people to pay more for public transport in order to get a "better deal" and not pay £2 for a bus ride is such capatilist thing to do, and would never be implemented under a genuine Labour government.
 
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