Arkle-Are we real???

H

harry

At the Start
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Apr 16, 2005
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OK Arkle the best horse in memory best horse inthe past and the future???
Really?

Denman, Kauto, War of Attrition, Dessie, Istabraq, carvills, Best Mate
New racing = loads of competition
Old racing= 4-5 horse races.

Arkle v Kauto v Denman v Imperial Call v Master Oats v Dessie v War

Just think that we all might be over rating the "King"
 
For sure IMO - look at what Master Minded's been doing to his field, nothing gets remotely near him at 2m (and when the jockey doesn't try and mess it up)
 
Arkle's greatness lay in his huge weight-carrying feats - defeating good fields in handicaps time after time - which modern top horses don't much do, if ever! Also in the frequency of his runs. Horses weren't mollycoddled then the way they are now

Comparisions however are odious, we are not comparing like with like - I do know however that people old enough to have watched all his runs, and who have followed the horses since, won't hear of any comparison, galling though that may seem for the young!
 
I don't remember Arkle and I haven't read about him but I believe the handicap rules where changed to try and make horses competitve against him. That is unique and amazing.
 
Suny Bay used to put in some big weight carrying performances HS but nobody thought he was better than Best Mate or other good Gold Cup winners. Carrying weight is down to physical size not ability.
 
having istrabeq in the list is a strange choice

dont think istrabeq would live with best mate over 3 miles yet alone arkle

i wouldnt say the future as no one can predict it

but i would say that arkle is the best todate over 3m-3m 2f

unfortunalty for horses like master minded they dont split ratings down to the various distances

out of any horse over the recent past i think masterminded is the one who can challenge arkle as the best but they wouldnt beat each other over their specalist distances

as good as imperial call best mate (won very weak editions of the GC) war of attrition master oats were i dont see them as good as kato or denman

and denman hasnt yet achieved enough to challenge arkle

The horses he beat or just got beat by were probably overrated by Timeform.
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a bit unfair he beat past and future gold cup winners giving plenty of weight
 
Headstrong said:
Arkle's greatness lay in his huge weight-carrying feats - defeating good fields in handicaps time after time - which modern top horses don't much do, if ever! Also in the frequency of his runs. Horses weren't mollycoddled then the way they are now. quote]

Agreed HS, and the fences were a darn sight stiffer then, too, hence his defeat when giving 3 stone and making a blunder 3out that would have put a few of the others on Harry's list on the floor.

P S - Is it worth noting that Arkle also won over 1m6f?
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All these things are relative like Headstrong suggests.I have little doubt that both Kauto Star and Denman would beat Arkle, but only in the same way as Dwain Chambers would beat Jesse Owens, the current Welsh rugby team would beat the much vaunted 1971 British Lions, or that Andy Murray would beat Rod laver. No one would seriosuly suggest though that 3 vanquished weren't the "greater"
 
there is no doubt masterminded and denman are very high class chasers,but i am just about old enough to remember arkle giving weights like 2 stone + to chasers like stalbridge colonist who i am sure just got touched of in a gold cup,thats how good arkle was and they did have to make two handicaps for arkle and his stablemate flyingbolt who was also outstanding and i beleive tom dreaper would not gallop them togetherin case himself had to really stretch himself,other great horses of the time were mill house and boune notte,great horses great times sorry about the reminising.
 
Irish Stamp said:
Suny Bay used to put in some big weight carrying performances HS but nobody thought he was better than Best Mate or other good Gold Cup winners. Carrying weight is down to physical size not ability.
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Quite a few horses have put up big weight-carrying performances but Arkle was giving two and three stones to horses that were the equal of Suny Bay.
 
Warbler said:
All these things are relative like Headstrong suggests.I have little doubt that both Kauto Star and Denman would beat Arkle, but only in the same way as Dwain Chambers would beat Jesse Owens, the current Welsh rugby team would beat the much vaunted 1971 British Lions, or that Andy Murray would beat Rod laver. No one would seriosuly suggest though that 3 vanquished weren't the "greater"
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I had a quick skim through American track times a while ago. It was enough to convince me that horses have not got appreciably faster over the last 30 to 40 years despite all the advancement in training methods and medication.
 
Melendez said:
I had a quick skim through American track times a while ago. It was enough to convince me that horses have not got appreciably faster over the last 30 to 40 years despite all the advancement in training methods and medication.
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Yet the lifetime no. of starts has decreased, so where is the breed headed !
 
Warbler said:
All these things are relative like Headstrong suggests.I have little doubt that both Kauto Star and Denman would beat Arkle, but only in the same way as Dwain Chambers would beat Jesse Owens, the current Welsh rugby team would beat the much vaunted 1971 British Lions, or that Andy Murray would beat Rod laver. No one would seriosuly suggest though that 3 vanquished weren't the "greater"
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I have a lot of sympathy for this approach. However, I'm not sure you can compare the two situations. The chances are, if Jesse Owens had the same training facilities and sports science and technology to back up his raw ability, Chambers would be looking for stronger solutions.

If Arkle was exposed to the methods and technology at Paul Nicholls's or Nicky Henderson's, he might well be up to giving Kauto or Master Minded a stone and a half.
 
You have to take into consideration the greater availability of jumps horses in the modern era too.

I don't know the exact answer to the following questions but:

How many flat horses turned to jumping after big handicap victories in the 60's?

How many US, French, German, New Zealand bred jumps horses were around at the time of Arkle?

Sorry Prince Regent - I wasn't comparing Isty to Arkle in a horse vs. horse basis but merely that one wouldn't expect Isty to carry big weights as he was so much smaller than Arkle.

Good point on times - the best horse of all time (generally accepted best horse at least) ran in the 1970's. Anyone who hasn't seen said horse should youtube Secretariat Belmont Stakes for how good he was, he could break track records in pulling up.
 
Desert Orchid said:
I have a lot of sympathy for this approach. However, I'm not sure you can compare the two situations. The chances are, if Jesse Owens had the same training facilities and sports science and technology to back up his raw ability, Chambers would be looking for stronger solutions.

If Arkle was exposed to the methods and technology at Paul Nicholls's or Nicky Henderson's, he might well be up to giving Kauto or Master Minded a stone and a half.
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Yes, but surely that's the issue. He hasn't had the same access, so that part of the argument is rendered conjecture. What we do know is that in jut about every sport you care to think off, if you could use a time machine to transport something that is useful today, it would beat the top performer of 30 years previous.

Marco Fu would beat Joe Davis.
Ian Poulter would beat Sam Snead etc
My God I'd even go so far as to say England would beat the 1970 Brazilians (in a temperate climate)
Bradman would never average 99

The only ones I'm not too sure about would be heavyweight boxing which might have regressed? As Gareth said horses have got faster and there's no reason to believe that they're unique. Motor racing would be the nearest comparator, but then it's not the drivers we're comparing is it. (for drivers read jockeys). A 2009 Ferrari would beat its 1969 quite easily with only modest test driver behind the wheel. For motor cars read horse. Todays useful chasers would beat Arkle, pure and simple.
 
Gareth,

I looked at American track times purely on the basis that they should be less influenced by track variances than running on European grass tracks. If there is any reason why horses as a breed should reach there limit on dirt and not on grass, I certainly can't think of it.

Just scanning through the times of the triple crown races

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kentucky_Derby
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belmont_Stakes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preakness_Stakes

There probably is a minor creep towards faster times since 1970 or so , but there are enough blips that this would not be a statistical certainty by any means e.g. Kentucky Derby times in the 60's probably averaged better than the 90's (on inspection didn't add it up), maybe the fast recent times will be reversed over the next few years.

Whatever the changes we're certainly not talking Rod Laver/Roger Federer proportions, it's no more than a 2 or 3 lbs.
 
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Racing is the only sport in the world were its modern day Champions are worse or not improving past its past Champions....:whistle:
 
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