Arkle-Are we real???

No coincidence that those two sports have been particularly affected by drugs.

(Track cyclists are getting faster and faster, of course.)
 
Euronymous said:
Disagree with that Gal. Like Racing, Baseball and Cycling have all it`s great champions in the past.
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Federer/Nadal, Woods, Thorpe/Phelleps, Bolt, Bekele, Schumacher all up there with the greats of their sport.

We have the likes of Moscow Flyer and even now Master Minded rated pounds behind the best two milers in history. How on earth is a horse ever going to be equal to some of the other greats let alone get within a breath of Arkle.

Training techniques, improved facilities, improvements in vet and feeding practices yet there is no improvement from horses running 30-40 years ago? Defies logic.

When you think of the breeding facilities and training methods available to Ballydoyle, Arabs and Americans and still the flat horses are rated miles behind the likes of Sea Bird etc.

If Arkle turns up fit (by his standards at his peak) and well in this years Gold Cup does anyone seriously think he would compete better than say if Carl Lewis took on Bolt today in 100m sprint? Neither would stand a chance.
 
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Galileo said:
When you think of the breeding facilities and training methods available to Ballydoyle, Arabs and Americans and still the flat horses are rated miles behind the likes of Sea Bird etc.
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But it`s an animals standing or even dominance within it`s era that that defines him or her. So yes, without doubt if you transplanted Sea Bird to this year`s Derby he wouldn`t win - but that`s irrelevent.

I think racing fans are more nostalgic than most, so when a true great arrives like a Dubai Millennium for example you get a lot of fans refusing to believe he`d have roasted Nijinsky alive over 10f - and that has nothing to do with the era they both raced in. The Godolphin colt was a better racehorse.

On the question of Timeform, they fecked up royally with the Arkle and Flyingbolt ratings.
 
I think it's futile to consider comparisons as it can never be proved. but if you take the big hitters in tennis these days......would they have survived in the days of wooden tennis rackets when it was the pur skill of the game that won as rallys were longer. Now, power is the name of the game and an ability to hit a return. Of course the Irish national sports have seen a lot of changes too. My dad talks about the great Kerry teams going down the years and the types of ball they used to kick.....lead he said. No bounce in them at all and if they got wet they weighed a tonne so everyone took their time on the field, pitch drainage wasn't good and there was no consideration of good eating and training techniques. Up the side of the hill and plenty of kicking the ball. Unlike today where it is a far more physical sport. And that brings me onto Arkle and the contemporary bunch. Now the prizemoney for the good races means that horses don't need to run so often. People tend to aim their horses at races now. And there was a time when the Grand National was the big race....not the Gold cup. Dessie put up a great weight carrying performance to win the Irish National and if he had truly stayed the Gold Cup trip, would he have become a legend the equal of Arkle? I don't know, it never happened. Training techniques have clearly changed. While the top trainers may be as ahead of the times as they always were, I think trainers have more expsoure to other techniques now and varying methods. gone are the days of just heading to the beach or plodding around the field, even for a young trainer. So I think the gap between the good and average trainers has got smaller which means they aren't as big margins now. I think if Arkle was with Paul Nicholls he would be winning Gold cups and handicap chases, just not by as far. My humble opinion and one that can be shot down or not but the truth is, we will never know.
 
If Arkle was with Tony Martin he would be trailing in mid division in handicap hurdles all winter with an eye on a prize somewhere next year!!
 
Hed have Red Rum, and be running him in 1mile 6f bumpers, and 2 mile novice chases, 6 runs, 6 weeks....
 
I have just watched a rerun of the 1971 Cup Final on Setanta. I last played competitive football in the Leinster Senior League in 1994. I think Charlie George's Arsenal would have beaten us, but I'm not certain having just watched that game.

It kills me to admit it, but Gal may be right.
 
Being as it seems we cant agree over whether or not Katchit is as good as Harchibald how can we state with accuracy if horses that lived 40 years apart are as good as each other ?!
 
Gearoid?? When I put a thread up for discussion which has received 37 replies in one day I certainly do not expect to be called an "idiot".!!!
So I expect you to post an apology asap. because Talking Horses don't call members "idiots"... Do you possibly understand or not????
 
an capall said:
I have just watched a rerun of the 1971 Cup Final on Setanta. I last played competitive football in the Leinster Senior League in 1994. I think Charlie George's Arsenal would have beaten us, but I'm not certain having just watched that game.

It kills me to admit it, but Gal may be right.
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Well for your info Mr Capall, I'm just coming off a few swalies with an ex pro footie who played over 300 times for Derby when they were in the top rank. In fact Mr Grasshopper owes me a pint because one of the players who knocked out his yankee (who'll we call Dean Sturridge) came off second best in an internal dispute with my friend (you're drink was bought Mr Hopper, and next time.... I get the feeling it wouldn't need to be, let's just you wouldn't pick a fight etc, but if you want to make an instant friend in football, it would be the easiest line to use)

Any way, DCFC came 5th that year, I asked the question....



Where would your team which came 5th in 1991/92 have finished today?

This was a team that Shilton in goal. Mark Wright as Centre, and Saunders as forward.

It took me quite af ew lagers to beat an opinion out of my friend, and have to say he was very reluctant to give an opionin....


Any one fancy having a guess ????
 
There are so many variables to consider when comparing any racehorse with its contemporaries that to try and compare one from 40 years ago with those from today is pretty much a futile exercise and one which is bound to lead to argument, rather than discussion, if you look back at similar threads through the ages on here!!

Can't see the point although I defend your rights to discuss this ad nauseum but there'll never be a definitive answer!

But isn't is better to leave ARKLE where he is - on a pedestal that probably will never be equalled ? It's what makes this sport so special, to have exceptional horses both now and way back whose performances were just so special that if you were lucky enough to see them in person a bit of their magic rubbed off on you ?

Try to over analyse it and you lose all that...
 
Warbler said:
All these things are relative like Headstrong suggests.I have little doubt that both Kauto Star and Denman would beat Arkle, but only in the same way as Dwain Chambers would beat Jesse Owens, the current Welsh rugby team would beat the much vaunted 1971 British Lions, or that Andy Murray would beat Rod laver. No one would seriosuly suggest though that 3 vanquished weren't the "greater"
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As the comedians would say there is no problem the current Welsh rugby team beating the likes of Barry John and Gareth Edwards as they are in their 60`s now like me.

I watched Arkle in most of his races and he was a phenomenon. Then ,like now,I was always trying to find one to beat the Jolly,and I was a big fan of Mill House. They say weight will stop them all,but his weight carrying performances were incredible. He`s not called "himself" for nothing. We couldn`t see him to well on TV in black & white as I remember and no prices on BBC betting and as I posted on another site,pre betting shops ,we wrote our bets on the back of a Woodbibe packet in the pub,for the runner to collect.
But when we watched him live at HQ Chelt,we were all in awe. He was and is the greatest.
 
Songsheet said:
But isn't is better to leave ARKLE where he is - on a pedestal that probably will never be equalled ? It's what makes this sport so special,
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Absolutely not!

The point of sport is to keep pushing the boundaries of brilliance and achievement. With his rating of well over 200 no horse will ever surpass him, match him or get near him.

Kind of like having the 1500 metre record set at 1.50.
 
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I've seen the videos of all the "greats" - but am too young to remember them.

As a result, I find it hard to quantify or rate each performance on a personal level - although I can read of the accomplishments of the horses that Arkle and Sea Bird defeated with ease, I do find it difficult to put this into context.

Whereas when I watched Master Minded totally destroy the previous season's Champion Chase winner in last year's race, it means a lot more to me as I have a better impression of the relative merits of the runners and where they rank in the current hierarchy of chasers.

That said, I can't help feeling that the ratings given to Arkle and FlyingBolt are inflated - and there is no way to my mind that any horse could give the amount of weight to Denman, Kauto Star and Masterminded as those ratings suggest, regardless of what era they were trained in.

I'm not saying that Arkle and Flyingbolt weren't better horses, but surely not that much better.
 
The fact that flying bolt was rated so close to Arkle kind of demeans the ratings given. Two unmatchable freaks (hate that word) in the same yard in the same era , is that really possible !
 
Sheikh said:
The fact that flying bolt was rated so close to Arkle kind of demeans the ratings given. Two unmatchable freaks (hate that word) in the same yard in the same era , is that really possible !
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Unlike Nicholl's having Master Minded, Denman and Kauto Star (not to mention Neptune Collonges) being next door neighbours? :p

Though I do know what you are getting at, the way I would put it is this - what are the chances of the two highest rated chasers ever (by over a stone and a half) being in the same stable at the same time?
 
granger said:
Or maybe what exactly did they have for their breakfasts
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What did they put on their cornflakes before they sat down and rated them. According to the ratings, Denman, Kauto and neptune would not get within a furlong of Arkle or flying bolt.
 
There is no way one can equate like for like in any sporting event or achievement,just one to look at, ALI there's no heavyweight now who could hold a candle to him in the ring.....but I would say Marciano was as good but you have two guys doing the same thing with differing styles and a few different rules too........

Arkle and Flying-bolt were the best we ever saw in their time! One must again try to put it into prospective like for like re; the fence sizes which have been reduced and altered over the years they ran on ground that was on a par with today's, but that now gets cancelled because you now have all these p-c people and animal rights associates you never had those in the good old days, or they were few and far between......

Yes over two miles you will find the latest star [Master Minded] a brilliant fencer and yes you may think he is the best on four legs[I personally am very impressed] but you cant relate like with like, and era with era...............;)
 
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