Arkle

Tanlic said:
I loved Arkle but it's fairy story this 212

Us old timer's usually stick by our guns like the older guys than me say Rocky Marciano would have murdered Ali...in his fookin dreams he would have.

I think I am a realist and the way I see it Arkle would have to give Desert Orchid 1st11 Lbs.

Well let's look at happened when Arkle 12st10bs tried to give that same weight to Buona Notte 1st 12lbs

It's the race they never talk about.

Buona Notte was the same age as Arkle but a mere novice in comparison and while Arkle had run twice that season this was the first race of the season for the Turnell horse who had suffered a set back.


Going to the last Buana Notte was running all over Arkle and the eventual winner Flying Wild and I swear was going so easily would have won by 6 lengths.

Unfortunately in novice fashion he ploughed straight through the last fence and handed the race to Flying Wild, finished 2nd and Arkle back in 3rd.

So as far as I am concerned if he couldn't give the weight to a high class novice how could anyone in their right mind say he could have given so much weight to Dessie or for that matter the brilliant Kauto Star.

I shall tell you of Arkle but historians from Ireland will say I am a liar, but racing history is written by those who have their own reasons and all those reasons are good. That does not mean those of us who have a mind of our own can not see through the hype and the beauty of it all were it true.
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Over two and a half miles a week after winning the Hennessy !
 
Arkle covered from the pond fence to the winning post faster than Moscow Flyer and just about every other Tingle Creek winner....he would have been at home even at 2 miles but for obvious reasons same as Kauto did he went for the top prizes over further....you cant say he was miles ahead of everything but not at 2 miles..

Buona Notte was class and about 20lbs behind Arkle and certainly not 30lbs plus like the slow boats he faced in Henessy. 5Bob Turnell rated him the best he ever trained along with Somerville....your talking a horse the class of Pendil and that is a compliment to Arkle. I cant believe people are so Naive they think Arkle could give Kauto 20lbs when a horse in his first race out of novince class beat him so they jump at this 7 days crap.....Arkle run a great race he just met his match at the weights...simple as

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you are passing a biased view though T..thats obvious by the way you have picked one race to try and pull Arkle down with..a week after winning a hennesey he runs over 2.5 miles..well i know what would be said today about a hennessey hoss running so quickly over shorter

look at the overall record ..and forget the KS beating Madison Berlais form..that was pure exhaustion by the also rans that extended the winning distances.

i feel you are suffering the..i have got used to one level of hoss for so long..that my head can't take a horse being so much better than anything else syndrome

If a horse today did half what Arkle did..the media woulld have him as a monster horse..like i said..when Denman won hennessey folk had orgasms..oooh top weight in a hennesey..ooh won so easy..beat a 142 hoss..imagine the excitement had it been a GC class hoss he had given 35lb to..forum would explode on here if we ever saw that

when a modern day chaser does what Arkle did..come back and tell me..i'll be interested..promise:)
 
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Tanlic said:
Arkle covered from the pond fence to the winning post faster than Moscow Flyer and just about every other Tingle Creek winner....he would have been at home even at 2 miles but for obvious reasons same as Kauto did he went for the top prizes over further....you cant say he was miles ahead of everything but not at 2 miles..

Buona Notte was class and about 20lbs behind Arkle and certainly not 30lbs plus like the slow boats he faced in Henessy. 5Bob Turnell rated him the best he ever trained along with Somerville....your talking a horse the class of Pendil and that is a compliment to Arkle. I cant believe people are so Naive they think Arkle could give Kauto 20lbs when a horse in his first race out of novince class beat him so they jump at this 7 days crap.....Arkle run a great race he just met his match at the weights...simple as

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That is the very reason why Lord Oaksey was so fullsome in praise of Arkle that day, he used ride out at Turnells so knew the calibre of BN.
Also Arkle was 7, a third season chaser after ten chases at that time.
 
The fence and won by several lengths are we to assume BN was better than any chaser who haa raced since bc thats whst the 212 says...

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@ec you start talking some sense i might respond to you...Arkle's last 3 seasons 6 runs 5 runs and 3 when he retired is hardly over racing. Tom Dreaper said Arkle and so much speed he could win a over 2 miles on the flat ...hes either a wonder horse where trip ground etc., make no difference or he is not.....are you saying Sprinter would have beat him over 2m4f?

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Tanlic said:
@ec you start talking some sense i mught respond to you...Arkles last 3 seasons 6 runs 5 tuns and 3 when he retired id hardly over racing. Tom Dreaper said Arkle and so much speed he could win a over 2 miles on the flat ...hes either a wonder horse where trip ground erc make no difference or he is not.....sre you saying Dprinter eould have beat him over 2m4f

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[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]
 
It is laughable he would run less times nowadays...carrying 11st 10lbs and 12st instead of 12.20lbs he may well have raced more than 5 times in a season.....he ran 8 times early in his career but one was a warm up on the flat that if you put a saddle on my old mate Reet he would have outrun them

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Tell you what just for the hell of it EC here you go.

EC1 said:
you are passing a biased view though T..thats obvious by the way you have picked one race to try and pull Arkle down withWhat complete garbage Kauto ran some great races in the KG what you want I compare him to The Great Bolster? ..a week after winning a hennesey he runs over 2.5 miles..well i know what would be said today about a hennessey hoss running so quickly over shorter Covered that lame excuse are you saying Ton Dreaper didn't think he could win or hadn't eaten up or what? The horse was beat on merit

look at the overall record ..and forget the KS beating Madison Berlais form..that was pure exhaustion by the also rans that extended the winning distances. Forget it because of what..Did Kauto win by too far or what? It was a brilliant display and horses were exhausted because they tried to keep up. The fact remains: For any horse to have finished 20 lengths in front of Kauto is straight out of a comic book?

i feel you are suffering the..i have got used to one level of hoss for so long..that my head can't take a horse being so much better than anything else syndrome "You come across as a complete dick with ignorant comments like that. I am not suffering from any such thing.......I wrote to David Cleary about Sprinter Sacre after Donnie and told him he was not the best since Arkle like Kauto but the new Arkle and posted the same on TRF,,,That I would say blows your shitty comment right out the window

If a horse today did half what Arkle did..the media woulld have him as a monster horse..like i said..when Denman won hennessey folk had orgasms..oooh top weight in a hennesey..ooh won so easy..beat a 142 hoss..imagine the excitement had it been a GC class hoss he had given 35lb to..forum would explode on here if we ever saw that.....Never impresses me that much if a horse has 9st7lbs in a chase it usually means he is near useless. Beaten them doesn't make you a world beater either. Not that long ago SDG beat that horse Bridget Andrews rides for Skelton giving it over 30lbs and it's won 3 or 4 races since.SDG followed up by getting his ass kicked by Dodging Bullets. It will always be easier giving weight to slow low class animals than beating something like SDG by 30 lengths

when a modern day chaser does what Arkle did..come back and tell me..i'll be interested..promise:)
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How about Desert Orchis giving a Grand National winner 34lbs and beating him by 16 lengths
or how many horses did BH Lad 12stone give 2 stone plus to that day and beat them by a fence and more. Hard to find top class horses running in H'Caps that no longer exist or pay enough.....but 1lb = length and hundreds of top class horses have been beaten by 35 lengths but of course that was exhaustion and that doesn't count:p
 
Hmm, a couple of things in there require challenging.

What GN winner did DO give 34lbs and a beating to? Was rated in the 160s? If not we're not comparing like with like (which is the basic premise of your argument).

Exactly which race did BHL win by a fence and more against any horse?

1lb does not = 1 length in staying races.

The point is that the hoses carrying 9-7 against Arkle would have carried 12-7 if Arkle hadn't been there, hence the creation of two handicaps for races for which he was entered. It would be a bit like Arkle's 12-7 to Many Clouds' 9-7. They weren't slow horses. They were top handicappers.
 
With respect Des you need to get up with the times. Breeding changed after Arkle with breeders and trainers looking more towards speed than staying ability.

As a result horses tend to be a bit more fragile with less emphasis put on the sires soundness these days and some like the French breds don't last as long in racing.

90% of horses in Arkle's day would be slower bred than those of the last 15 years or so.

Plus I mentioned 1lb = 1 length in the King george which is correct I believe.

I'd love to saa anything give that Weight to Many Cloulds fit and well...........42lbs??? madness

Aname like yours and you don't know which national horse he beat? Tut Tut Seagram who was rated 164 at one time and that's no different than saying Arkle beat Height O Fashion and she won the Irish Cesarewitch but fail to mention it was before Arkle even jumped a hurdle.
 
Tanlic said:
With respect Des you need to get up with the times. Breeding changed after Arkle with breeders and trainers looking more towards speed than staying ability.

As a result horses tend to be a bit more fragile with less emphasis put on the sires soundness these days and some like the French breds don't last as long in racing.

90% of horses in Arkle's day would be slower bred than those of the last 15 years or so.
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That's changing the goalposts, now. Introducing a new angle. However, I think it undermines your own point. If they're breeding more for speed nowadays then you'd have to argue that Arkle had more stamina than Kauto Star etc, so would have beaten them even further. We know Himself wasn't short of speed himself. But I'm appreciative that you expressed your point with respect.

Tanlic said:
Plus I mentioned 1lb = 1 length in the King george which is correct I believe.
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No, incorrect. At 3m a length is worth about 0.75lb, but that's a moot point really since distances were measured differently back then.


Tanlic said:
I'd love to saa anything give that Weight to Many Cloulds fit and well...........42lbs??? madness

Aname like yours and you don't know which national horse he beat? Tut Tut Seagram who was rated 164 at one time and that's no different than saying Arkle beat Height O Fashion and she won the Irish Cesarewitch but fail to mention it was before Arkle even jumped a hurdle.
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I know it seems hard to believe. That is the whole point about how good Arkle was. That's what he was doing. That's why we're still talking about him 50 years on.

I'll check through the form books up in the loft when I get the chance but I don't imagine DO gave Seagram 34lbs and a beating when the latter was rated 164. I was rating horses back then and had Dessie on 191 or so. What is genuinely hard to imagine is that Arkle could have given him 20lbs and a beating, even if it might only have been a neck. Hard to imagine but I wouldn't say totally out of the question.
 
When you see a line up like this which we never will I think it brings it home. I could not back anything with confidence if ground and distance were not taken into consideration at Timeform ratings

There would be a few out of the Handicap getting over 35lbs like Dawn Run Forgive and Forget Wayward lad Silver Buck Bula Night Nurse etc.

111-121 Arkle 8 12-10
11-111 Flyingbolt 9 12-8
111-111 Sprinter Sacre 8 11-4
122-11 Mill House 8 11-3
11-111 Kauto Star 8 11-3
111-11 Desert Orchid 8 10-13
111/1-11 Dunkirk 8 10-12
111-21 Burroughill Lad 8 10-10
111-111 Moscow Flyer 8 10-10
111-111 Denman 8 10-9
111-111 Captain Christie 8 10.8
111-1 Carvills Hill 8 10.8
111-111 Bast Mate 8 10.8
111-11 Pendil 8 10-4
111-1 Buona Notte 8 10-2
111-11 Jodami 8 10-0
 
Tanlic said:
How's that Colin is this not the place to discuss these things and should we all just agree with what others think

Tell you what mate shove your forum up your ass
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Nice one, Col. :rolleyes:
If you're going to berate everyone who has a disagreement with EC, you're gonna finish up with a very small forum.
 
reet hard said:
Nice one, Col. :rolleyes:
If you're going to berate everyone who has a disagreement with EC, you're gonna finish up with a very small forum.
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oh dear..he didn't have a disagreement with me..can't you read you biased fool?

its got bugger all to do with me ..i put my opinion up..Tanlic responded in a way you should be criticising..because if i had responded like he did then numpties like you would soon be on my case....but because of your sad bias towards Tanlic..you won't do that.

don't bring me into someone elses failing to argue their case..i'm not having that i'm afraid..you've had years of picking on a user name..get a life please and forget i even post on here...you have no time for me..and i certainly have no time for you or others with sad forum biases

let that be an end to the digs please
 
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You what???? you post shyte like this "I feel you are suffering the..i have got used to one level of hoss for so long..that my head can't take a horse being so much better than anything else syndrome" you patronising bighead and expect people sit back and have you talk down to them like you are some sort of Bachelor of Racing with honours

I am not the first person to find your posting offensive every argument I have seen on here involves you....every damn one of them...How is that EC pray tell?
 


every argument on her involves you

no..thats not true.

here is what is true though..complete cnts like you and Reet are both bullies..and for years he's been on my case because he is the saddest cnt i've ever seen on forums..he was just the same when i was on TRF ...and you aren't far behind..and you are so mindless that when you came on this forum you threw in with yer sad mate from TRF to single me out for treatment

thats the truth

just look at the pair of you now..you post a load of bile a page back...in a way not one member would put up with on here..i don't even respond to it..and yet cnt Reet comes on picking an argument..then on you come. You are both bullies and two of the biggest cnts i've come across in 16 years of forums

well..i'm no longer putting up with being bullied..i'll just call the pair of you on your behaviour..which is sickening in truth
 
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Tanlic said:
When you see a line up like this which we never will I think it brings it home. I could not back anything with confidence if ground and distance were not taken into consideration at Timeform ratings

There would be a few out of the Handicap getting over 35lbs like Dawn Run Forgive and Forget Wayward lad Silver Buck Bula Night Nurse etc.

111-121 Arkle 8 12-10
11-111 Flyingbolt 9 12-8
111-111 Sprinter Sacre 8 11-4
122-11 Mill House 8 11-3
11-111 Kauto Star 8 11-3
111-11 Desert Orchid 8 10-13
111/1-11 Dunkirk 8 10-12
111-21 Burroughill Lad 8 10-10
111-111 Moscow Flyer 8 10-10
111-111 Denman 8 10-9
111-111 Captain Christie 8 10.8
111-1 Carvills Hill 8 10.8
111-111 Bast Mate 8 10.8
111-11 Pendil 8 10-4
111-1 Buona Notte 8 10-2
111-11 Jodami 8 10-0
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That is an excellent way of presenting an argument, I admit.

What are the weights based on? Their Timeform ratings? If so, at which stage of their respective careers? And are the form figures as they were at that stage?

The relative ratings of the likes of Desert Orchid, Burrough Hill Lad and and Jodami look about right, so why wouldn't Arkle's? Wouldn't Jodami's year have been closer to Arkle's than Kauto Star's? If so why doubt Arkle's rating and not Kauto's?
 
Looking at Arkle's and Buona Notte's the rating are where they peaked. There was 26lbs between them in the MF there its 10lbs more but Buona Notte died before reaching his full potential.

I reckon you'd be doubting every horse there not just Arkle. Kauto having to give Pendil 13lbs round Kempton eg. I wouldn't fancy his chances.

The point is they are lined up like little tin soldiers between Dessie and Best Mate and it's pretty obvious in reality that's just not possible.

In a real race something would give and something would finish first and something would finish last probably with 20 lengths between all 6

As far as Arkle goes 12st10lbs in a field like that.I would honestly lay him he never faced horses of that calibre after Mill House had his back problems
 
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EC1 said:


every argument on her involves you

no..thats not true.

here is what is true though..complete cnts like you and Reet are both bullies..and for years he's been on my case because he is the saddest cnt i've ever seen on forums..he was just the same when i was on TRF ...and you aren't far behind..and you are so mindless that when you came on this forum you threw in with yer sad mate from TRF to single me out for treatment

thats the truth

just look at the pair of you now..you post a load of bile a page back...in a way not one member would put up with on here..i don't even respond to it..and yet cnt Reet comes on picking an argument..then on you come. You are both bullies and two of the biggest cnts i've come across in 16 years of forums

well..i'm no longer putting up with being bullied..i'll just call the pair of you on your behaviour..which is sickening in truth
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Single you out my ass.......I have no idea who you are nor do I remember you on TRF and I think I have shared 1 PM with Reet when I had some tickets for Ascot I thought he might be able to use. Other than that we have spoken on here only for all to see. The only person I talk to regular is Marble and I think I have PM'd only 3 other people about thing that had nothing to do with you or any other poster.

To form a Clique to attack someone you need to communicate with others and that is something I have never done and never will do..you got some imagination.look in the mirror he'll fight with you personally I have had enough of your stupid nonsense...think I'll go PM Marble :lol:
 
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