ATR Sectional Times Trial

God knows why this information isn't freely available every day for every track.

Would love to get stuck into this kind of thing but impossible to do the work yourself if working full time too.
 
We ran sectionals for a season or two at Lingfield. We put the timing discs into the horse's tack so that the system could read their speeds as they shot past various monitors around the course. It seemed to die from a distinct lack of interest in it. Nobody seemed to know how - or be bothered - to interpret the data to enhance their established betting skills, and it got pulled. I guess if nobody on here knew that, it kinda proves the point about punter apathy.
 
We ran sectionals for a season or two at Lingfield. We put the timing discs into the horse's tack so that the system could read their speeds as they shot past various monitors around the course. It seemed to die from a distinct lack of interest in it. Nobody seemed to know how - or be bothered - to interpret the data to enhance their established betting skills, and it got pulled. I guess if nobody on here knew that, it kinda proves the point about punter apathy.

there is one big difference between US punters & UK ones..in most cases the UK punter is a bone idle - dyed in the wool - know very little. A punter that has an inablity to study the game in any depth whatsover - but gives the impression they know everything.:)

The US punter is a far more analytical character..in the main.

Hence when you introduce any element that aids a punter here..if it involves any application..they discard it.

The UK punter lives on old hackneyed phrases as a form of analysis and gains comfort that he knows other punters are losers because they are also lazy. The old chestnuts are the UK formstudy...always back the outsider of 3..yer can give weight but not distance...time's only important in jail....class hoss won..form is temporay class is permanent.

Most punters here don't even understand the handicapping system..how class moves change weights...they look at weights and think a horse is better off because it carries less weight than last time.

so its not really surprising that when you offer some form of analysis..with a bit of input required..that the average UK punter doesn't bother with it
 
Unless you get get this for every race ( flat ) and in an export form - this is a pointless exercise. There will be far too many unknowns.
 
Unless you get get this for every race ( flat ) and in an export form - this is a pointless exercise. There will be far too many unknowns.

thats nonsense to be fair

you'll be wanting someone to work it out for you next and give nice winning selections

theres no free lunch if you want an edge

for instance..at the moment we have a few AW tracks..if you just concentrated on one track..like Stav did when he posted for a season about just Southwell pace and speed figures..on FF forum..you can give yourself an edge..just studying one track.

its about lateral thinking as well..something also lacking with UK punters in the main
 
Totally agree EC1, people just cannot be arsed to do their own legwork and rely on others too much, different in the US where people thrive off making their own interpretations. Racing For Change should be promoting things like this, people thrive off statistics in other sports (look at cricket and tennis and even football with OPTA stats), rather than lowering it to the lowest common denominator, RFC should be educating people in things like this and inspiring people to use their own heads when it comes to picking winners.

Quadrilla, disagree about it being pointless as Southwell is a very unique track so it's a good place to trial it. Would like to try and use them myself but working full-time as well as already doing normal speed ratings makes it awfully difficult sadly.
 
I'm also one of the few punters that can, and would use this information.
But, if I cannot get it all - I don't want any. And you must be able to export the raw data - I'm not going to key it all in.
And I'm willing to pay for it.

Why did they not consult us first ?
 
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Very good point about exporting the data, hadn't even noticed that. Could copy and past into excel from the PDF though.

Do think Southwell is a good track just to do for now as form isn't really transferable there.
 
I'm also one of the few punters that can, and would use this information.
But, if I cannot get it all - I don't want any. And you must be able to export the raw data - I'm not going to key it all in.
And I'm willing to pay for it.

Why did they not consult us first ?


the harder it is to put it together though..the bigger your edge..if its all laid out then it will get factored into the prices..whereas as it stands now those that put work in will reap benefit.

Its like folk wanting horse's weighing..whats the point?..any horse near its ideal weight would be a falsely short price..because everyone would have the info

re Stan's point - he is correct - Southwell is actually the perfect track to use this..thats why Stav picked Southwell out of all the other AW tracks..and that was just for speed/pace analysis.

Southwell has a unique surfacet..maybe Wolves is next best to study...but Southwell is a little world of its own..lots of races there..lots of horses run there regularly

it actually equates well to US racing where you get punters there just concentrating on one or two tracks
 
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I watch a lot of late night American racing and I can assure you that they have their fair share of headscratching results that can't be explained by any amount of clock watching.
 
The cack from Finger Lakes and Suffolk Downs on ATR or decent American racing from Santa Anita, Hollywood, Churchill etc.?

The entire game in the US is built around clock watching and the prices descend from speed figures on the whole.
 
I watch a lot of late night American racing and I can assure you that they have their fair share of headscratching results that can't be explained by any amount of clock watching.

so you are saying that a clockwatcher has to get a 100% success rate or its a flawed analysis..but people who do any other analysis can have a 25% strike rate and its classed as pure genuis
 
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At the minor tracks jockey competency is a major player in the US - some of them really don't have a clue what they're doing.
 
At the minor tracks jockey competency is a major player in the US - some of them really don't have a clue what they're doing.

so true

i use a multitude of methods to pick winners, i think i have shown that on the forum..Luke seems to have me pegged as a clock watcher full stop..which just isn't true:whistle:

but..out of all the angles..it tells you most about how a race is run..and race reading is a real big deal at this game

in fact..i'd say if you can't race read you are totally fooked at this game
 
Back to the raw data.

Is the information now available, exactly what we want ?

As an example, I'd like to know the distance, in lengths or seconds, a runner was behind the leader at say "the 2 furlong to go pole" and at the finish. All on the same page.

Because what we appear to have here, is a time delayed point to point timing.

Or can this be calculated from the available information.
 
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s

in fact..i'd say if you can't race read you are totally fooked at this game

I disagree, I have plenty of successful bets without watching horses runs back, I simply don't have the time, I trust my ratings and that's what I go off.

I find one can spot things that aren't there the more you watch races back.

Some people can make race reading paying like some can make dosage/speed ratings/paddock watching pay, it's all down to individual preferences and ultimately, the individual brain.
 
Going back to horses' 'ideal' weights and the occasional bleat to have them published. No.1, the cost of the weighbridges for horses is around £5,000 and they'd have to be calibrated after every meeting, to ensure the one or two who stomped about on them hadn't buggered-up the mechanisms. Most small-time courses just don't have the money to lash out that for their 16-22 meetings.

Then, No.2, there'd be the interpretation of the weight itself. A horse might ideally be (for sake of argument) 1,400 lbs. That's him really fit, toned, ready to rumble. But what if his weight on the day came up 1,410 lbs? Are you going to turn him down because he's a relatively small amount over the ideal? And a horse in the same race whose ideal weight is 1,410 lbs comes up at 1,420 lbs too? Does that make them even-Stevens, or are you now going to swerve both?

What if the 'ideal' weight shows up, but you think the horse looks unusually off-colour, has gone in his coat, seems to lack good muscle tone? Swerve again?

There's also the increasing difference as a horse grows from an often light and weedy 2 y.o. through growth spurts to 3 and 4. If we accept that horses don't actually stop growing until they're around 8, then you'd need to be re-establishing optimum weights all through its working life, particularly if one went from the Flat to NH, where they likes 'em big an' chunky. Perhaps using a veterinary benchmark, the BHA could draw up a band of optimal weights-by-age, and then individual horses' weights could be seen to be fitting within those ranges or not. But what to make of a horse which, just like a human, is naturally on the light or heavy side, but fit as a flea? Just as with humans - Bill's 12st 7lbs could be toned and fit, John's same weight could be a blob, both the same age - horses' weights per se could mean not a lot.



Can you honestly imagine a race card carrying every single bit of data that might assist you with your Exacta? So far, you have plain form, ratings, then C, D, CD, BF, and the usual vowels and consonants for NH racing, a brief analysis of latest effort/s, and varying amounts of tack declared: cheekpieces, tongue strap, visor, blinkers. You could now add in the latest timings and you could add in the horse's optimum weight and then have a board displayed on the day showing what he weighed in at that morning on arrival. You will probably be told in the r/c if he's trying a new trip, with a new trainer, etc. You'll have to reconfigure some of your data if he's now got a conditional on taking off X amount of lbs versus the pro last time, where he carried the allotted weight. You'll also be noting if he's first-time at the track or knows it well, and you'll also be figuring in any track bias and draw bias, plus the horse's preference (if any) for the going.

To make things even more helpful, maybe trainers should declare crossed nosebands, breathing ops since last race, change in bitting, and what medications their horses might've been on since last sighted. I'm not being entirely facetious, since some tack and definitely some treatments which affect the way a horse runs are not declared at present.

Isn't there sometimes too much information?
 
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Isn't there sometimes too much information?

If you import all this seamlessly into a database and then numbercrunch - then, NO.

At present, some of the required data is available and accurate. But not from the same source.

Unless you have it ALL and it's accurate. You have Garbage in - Garbage out.
 
They manage it in Hong Kong which has the healthiest betting market in the world as well as great attendances.
 
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