Betfair Million Bonus - Dropped

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The changes this year were a disaster....the flat one could be interesting though if the bonus was big enough to seriously tempt the top three year olds to run.

By Graham Green6.00PM 26 JUL 2009
THE Betfair Million jumps bonus is set to be dropped this season as the betting exchange, sponsors of the King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Stakes for the first time on Saturday, considers launching a similar scheme on the Flat in 2010 with the Ascot feature as its centrepiece.
The Derby would feature in any new bonus, while the third leg could be either the Breeders' Cup Turf or Classic.
Should the initiative be taken up, Betfair is prepared to boost the value of the prize beyond £1 million in an effort to reverse the recent trend of Derby winners missing the King George.
Among the factors that have prompted the review of the jumps bonus is the strength in depth of Paul Nicholls' staying chasers and the reluctance of the champion trainer to race his stars against one another unless absolutely necessary.
The Nicholls-trained Kauto Star won the £1 million bonus in its second season when taking the Betfair Chase, King George and Cheltenham Gold Cup, and was only foiled from collecting again last year when stablemate Denman won the Gold Cup. However, the make-up of races was changed last season to include the John Smith's Grand National for the first time.
Betfair head of media Tony Calvin insists the company remains committed to the Betfair Chase at Haydock, but admitted: "The Betfair Million National Hunt bonus is highly likely not to be offered this season, but that is not to say it won't come back in another guise, or the same guise."
 
Can't see for the life of me how this will work. How many owners campaigning horses at that level are going to be swayed by a mere million pound bonus? The answer would seem to be me to be precisely zero.

Or am I missing something?
 
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I agree trackside it isn't going to be easy, but credit to Ascot and Betfair for recognising a problem with the King George and trying to do something about it.
 
Wouldn't they be better off making the King George the final leg of any bonus?

Perhaps they could have the bonus open to 3yos and older horses? Something like:

older: Coronation Cup / Grand Prix de Saint-Cloud

3yos: Derby / Irish Derby

Not necessarily using those exact races, but any horses that win both go into the King George with a shot at the bonus. Potentially one from each generation taking each other on for it.
 
Betfair don't want anyone relieving them of a million quid - that's why they made it unwinnable last season over Jumps. Expect similiarly unachievable bollix for the Flat in 2010.
 
Better off to be the winner of the Derby/Coronation Cup eligible and have to go on and win the Eclipse and the King George.
 
If it goes ahead, I think the KG has to be the second race. Even with as many as four first leg races, to ensure top class participation in the KG then there have to be multiple potential winners. If the Eclipse was the second race, then the winner of that race is the only one with a reason to go for the KG.
 
Grasshopper said:
Betfair don't want anyone relieving them of a million quid - that's why they made it unwinnable last season over Jumps. Expect similiarly unachievable bollix for the Flat in 2010.
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Chances are, though, that it wouldn't have cost them anything near a million. I always understood there were deals struck at high levels between sponsoring companies and insurance companies whereby the proposal was underwritten at the insurance equivalent of a bet, which would probably have equated to around 10/1. It probably didn't cost Betfair much more than £100,000 to stage it and they'd have got squillions worth of publicity along the way.

As for which races it shuold involve, I wouldn't want to see any American races involved. I don't think it would be good PR as there's no chance of any US horses coming here for the first two legs.

I think the Eclipse, King George and the Arc should be the ones since we can at least get the best European horses to run in them and they're all-aged races. To include the Derby will rule out all the older horses unless, as DJ suggests, it's either/or with the Derby and Coronation Cup.
 
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HughC said:
If it goes ahead, I think the KG has to be the second race. Even with as many as four first leg races, to ensure top class participation in the KG then there have to be multiple potential winners. If the Eclipse was the second race, then the winner of that race is the only one with a reason to go for the KG.
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Good point. I'd like to see Coronation Cup/Derby, followed by the King George, and then the Arc. It would also help rid the sport of the nonsense of a horse needing to win at 10f.
 
Hamm said:
It would also help rid the sport of the nonsense of a horse needing to win at 10f.
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I do not think it is a nonesense. I think it is good for any horse to be able to prove his versatility.

I think the King George is being harmed more by the monster that the Arc is becoming rather than a desperate need for 10 furlongs and Ascot find that an easy excuse to use. Times change and the King George is simply not the target it once was (for three year olds). Very hard for a three year old to be able to win a King George and the Arc in the same year now a days when it is really the ideal time for a break.

How come the Arc is not suffering for it being a 12 furlong race?
 
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I agree about versatility, but not
1. Where it is clearly not going to show the horse in a positive light
2. Where versatility is limited to showing more speed (i.e. - versatility in dropping down in trip as opposed to going up)

A clear example of the first is the poor race planning by the Stoute team this year for both Conduit and Tartan Bearer prior to the King George; it was clear to most that both these horses should be running over 1m4. By all means run them once over 1m2, but seeing as the first run for both horses showed how short this was, it was a mistake to persist, but that mistake was driven by the stallion market requiring a display of speed.

Galileo wasn't able to win a Group 1 over 1m2, and look at him as a stallion.
 
Hamm said:
I agree about versatility, but not
1. Where it is clearly not going to show the horse in a positive light
2. Where versatility is limited to showing more speed (i.e. - versatility in dropping down in trip as opposed to going up)

A clear example of the first is the poor race planning by the Stoute team this year for both Conduit and Tartan Bearer prior to the King George; it was clear to most that both these horses should be running over 1m4. By all means run them once over 1m2, but seeing as the first run for both horses showed how short this was, it was a mistake to persist, but that mistake was driven by the stallion market requiring a display of speed.

Galileo wasn't able to win a Group 1 over 1m2, and look at him as a stallion.
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Neither Conduit or Tartan Bearer were embarrassed by their return to 10 furlongs - I was glad to see them tested over the trip and see what they could and couldn't do against the likes Sea The Stars and co. They have since returned to 12 furlongs - I do not really see the problem.

You mention Galileo, he would have been better off missing the King George and taking in the Irish Champion and then the Arc. Considering not one standout Ballydoyle three year old has since run in the King George tells you all you need to know about how the race in mid summer after two trials and two Derbys effected him. Remember speaking to a lad from the yard a couple of years after he was retired and I mentioned the Leopardstown trip found him out but he said the horse was never quite the same after the King George even in terms of how he used himself etc.

Ask Coolmore and Darley to name two races that they want to win above all in Europe and the Derby and the Arc would be the top two.
 
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Galileo said:
I do not think it is a nonesense. I think it is good for any horse to be able to prove his versatility.

I think the King George is being harmed more by the monster that the Arc is becoming rather than a desperate need for 10 furlongs and Ascot find that an easy excuse to use. Times change and the King George is simply not the target it once was (for three year olds). Very hard for a three year old to be able to win a King George and the Arc in the same year now a days when it is really the ideal time for a break.

How come the Arc is not suffering for it being a 12 furlong race?
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To continue, it is a bit of both. Why have Motivator, Authorised and Sea the Stars (all impressive Derby winners) chosen the Eclipse over the King George? It is nothing to do with the Arc. None had/will have a break after the Eclipse and Arc trials (Sea the Stars to Juddmonte, Authorised same, Motivator to the Irish Champion) so it's clear that their mid summer plans were dictated by a 'need' to put a Group 1 over 1m2 on their CV, as opposed to the Arc causing the downturn of the King George. All three could easily have run in the King George; they chose not to because of the distance.

Why doesn't this impact the Arc? Difficult to say. The three principle all-aged 1m2 Group 1s (Eclipse, Juddmonte, Irish Champion) all take place in advance of the Arc, thereby allowing horses to incorporate at least one of these and the Arc, as there is no prestigous 1m2 all-aged Group 1 at the same time as the Arc (the Champion Stakes has fallen by the wayside).
 
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Galileo said:
Neither Conduit or Tartan Bearer were embarrassed by their return to 10 furlongs - I was glad to see them tested over the trip and see what they could and couldn't do against the likes Sea The Stars and co. They have since returned to 12 furlongs - I do not really see the problem.

You mention Galileo, he would have been better off missing the King George and taking in the Irish Champion and then the Arc. Considering not one standout Ballydoyle three year old has since run in the King George tells you all you need to know about how the race in mid summer after two trials and two Derbys effected him. Remember speaking to a lad from the yard a couple of years after he was retired and I mentioned the Leopardstown trip found him out but he said the horse was never quite the same after the King George even in terms of how he used himself etc.

Ask Coolmore and Darley to name two races that they want to win above all in Europe and the Derby and the Arc would be the top two.
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First point - no, neither were embarassed, but it was evident after their first try at the trip that a return to 1m4 would have seen them in a better light. SMS/Ballymacoll persisted with 1m2 for each a second time, thereby, imho, 'wasting' a race, especially when you consider how a race like the 1m4 Grand Prix de Saint Cloud would have been ideal for Tartan Bearer. Bit silly for them to start talking about the need to win a Group 1 with him now - the need was there at the beginning of the season, and the better opportunities have gone abegging due to him running at the wrong trip.

Galileo - yes, he probably didn't run to the same level in the Irish Champion (clearly not afterwards), but this was probably a mix of him not being the same and the trip. You say he should have missed the King George - I say the wrong race was the Irish Derby - the King George was a fantastic race for his 'CV' - the Irish Derby showed little. I think his being over the top was due to one race too many before the Arc, not necessarily the King George.

Your last point - I think exactly the same. The Arc is the premier 1m4 all aged Group 1 in Europe (& the world). This, as I've shown with the examples of 3 recent Derby winners, doesn't have to be at the expense of the King George.
 
Sea The Stars is on a break right now - the trainer confirmed that.

I would imagine Authorised had a break between his Eclipse and Juddmonte effort much the same as STS and I see no reason why Motivator didnt as well.

Any of those horses could easily have taken in the Eclipse and the King George which has much the same time gap as the Irish Champion and the Arc.

The reason why the Arc has not been affected is that it is simply the preferred choice for the test over 12 furlongs now compared to the King George. If you want to take in a ten furlong race - Motivator went close to winning two and Authorised won one and touched off in another - and another 12 furlong race the Arc is the better choice nowadays as it is worth more and is more valuable as a stallion prospect.


Hamm said:
To continue, it is a bit of both. Why have Motivator, Authorised and Sea the Stars (all impressive Derby winners) chosen the Eclipse over the King George? It is nothing to do with the Arc none had/will have a break after the Eclipse and Arc trials (Sea the Stars to Juddmonte, Authorised same, Motivator to the Irish Champion) so it's clear that there mid summer plans were dictated by a 'need' to put a Group 1 over 1m2 on their CV, as opposed to the Arc causing the downturn of the King George. All three could easily have run in the King George; they chose not to.

Why doesn't this impact the Arc? Difficult to say. The three principle all-aged 1m2 Group 1s (Eclipse, Juddmonte, Irish Champion) all take place in advance of the Arc, thereby allowing horses to incorporate at least one of these and the Arc, as there is no prestigous 1m2 all-aged Group 1 at the same time as the Arc (the Champion Stakes has fallen by the wayside).
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Hamm said:
Galileo - yes, he probably didn't run to the same level in the Irish Champion (clearly not afterwards), but this was probably a mix of him not being the same and the trip. You say he should have missed the King George - I say the wrong race was the Irish Derby - the King George was a fantastic race for his 'CV' - the Irish Derby showed little. I think his being over the top was due to one race too many before the Arc, not necessarily the King George.
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We have had this arguement before, you do not hold the Irish Derby that highly in the calender - I do and clearly so do others. It is an ideal race for the Epsom winner to confirm his superiority over his three year olds over 12 furlongs much as the Irish Guineas and St James Palace Stakes is for the Newmarket Guineas winner.

The King George on the other hand provides a severe test for the three year olds (after it has been peaked for the Derbys) and is generally run on very fast ground and run at a tremendous pace. Hard to expect a three year old to still be in top form by Irish Champion, Arc, Breeders Cup and Hong Kong/Japan Cup races etc which are probably more desireable now for most owners and breeders.
 
So, why can't a horse run in the Eclipse & KG, then have 5 weeks to the Irish Champion, and then the Arc 4 weeks later? That's not a hectic schedule (providing of course they haven't run in the Irish Derby).

Or, miss the Eclipse, have a break after the Derby, run in the King George, then either the Juddmonte or more likely the Irish Champion, and then the Arc.

Nowadays a potential stallion needs a 1m2 victory after winning the Derby, and connections want to give the horse as many opportunities as possible. There is nothing in the above 2 schedules which means a horse cannot run in both the King George and the Arc.
 
Galileo said:
We have had this arguement before, you do not hold the Irish Derby that highly in the calender - I do and clearly so do others. It is an ideal race for the Epsom winner to confirm his superiority over his three year olds over 12 furlongs much as the Irish Guineas and St James Palace Stakes is for the Newmarket Guineas winner.
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I was referring to Galileo - which race do you think did more for his CV?

Same with Alamshar.

I respect your view on the Irish Derby (mine differs), but it doesn't compare historically to the King George.
 
Hamm said:
There is nothing in the above 2 schedules which means a horse cannot run in both the King George and the Arc.
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They can run in both, but history tells us the vast majority will not win the Arc if they do. In fact only three horses have - Dylan Thomas (older horse and a bit of a freak in that he probably needed the King George to keep his eye in), Mill Reef and Dancing Brave.
 
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Hamm said:
Not easy, I agree. But it can be done with the right horse and trainer.
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The Arc is arguably the most prized race in the world - or at least in that bracket - the history books tell us is nearly impossible to win a King George and the Arc. Talk about different timetables of schedules etc but the fact of the matter is you can virtually give up on winning the Arc if you take part in the King George.....that is the bottom line and that is why I think the 10 furlong excuse is all too easy for Ascot to throw around - simply not worth it.
 
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