Betfair Sprint Cup

reet hard said:
BJ,
The whole thrust of my standpoint isn't that sectionals aren't very useful, but the formulaic approach to them is misleading and of very little use practically.
Shaquille's just a case in point, race reading identified him as a speed horse and, despite the figures vaunting him as otherwise, nothing he has done changes that view.
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Like desert, I don’t quite know what you mean by speed horse. I find sectionals very useful in supporting or refuting what I (or others) think I’ve seen. I suppose the most obvious are the many comments of the “showed good acceleration to finish strongly” type, where sectional show that the horse actually decelerated, but at a far slower rate than the opposition.
 
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Sectionals show that he was going slower than everything else from the end of the second furlong.

The RP report says:

The Camacho team were deflated with the performance of Shaquille, with concern over the stable form following just two winners since the start of last month.
"We're very disappointed," said Steve Brown, Camacho's husband and assistant. "Nothing obvious has come to light so far, but James [Doyle] said he was very flat and was beaten early.
"We need to go home and lick our wounds and find out what's going on. It was too bad to be true and we need to get to the bottom of it and what's going on in general.
"We've definitely been out of form, but there's been nothing obvious at home and all the tests have been stringent, but we're obviously not coming up with all the answers."
 
barjon said:
Like desert, I don’t quite know what you mean by speed horse. I find sectionals very useful in supporting or refuting what I (or others) think I’ve seen. I suppose the most obvious are the many comments of the “showed good acceleration to finish strongly” type, where sectional show that the horse actually decelerated, but at a far slower rate than the opposition.
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Basically, a speed horse quickens and a pace horse lengthens - both dependent on the circumstances of the race.
 
So if Shaq is a 'speed horse' why didn't he quicken away from inferior horses yesterday?

Were they all speedier?

I get the difference in the definitions but I'm not convinced it was at play yesterday.

The Stewart Simpson book advocated identifying speed horses and which tracks suited them best. It was very logical in that respect but didn't always work in practice.

As Bj says, sectionals will often show that a horse that appears to be quickening isn't doing so at all (just as they tell us in athletics and swimming). That kind of information is factual and irrefutable. If your eye for race reading is more accurate than that then you are truly gifted and shouldn't have to resort to insult to try to score points in a one-sided contest.

More power to your elbow, I say.
 
So let me try and get this, reet. A pace horse increases its speed by lengthening its stride, whereas a speed horse increases its speed by increasing its tempo. Presumably that means that speed horse uses up more energy going faster than a pace horse?
 
Desert Orchid said:
So if Shaq is a 'speed horse' why didn't he quicken away from inferior horses yesterday?

Were they all speedier?

I get the difference in the definitions but I'm not convinced it was at play yesterday.

The Stewart Simpson book advocated identifying speed horses and which tracks suited them best. It was very logical in that respect but didn't always work in practice.

As Bj says, sectionals will often show that a horse that appears to be quickening isn't doing so at all (just as they tell us in athletics and swimming). That kind of information is factual and irrefutable. If your eye for race reading is more accurate than that then you are truly gifted and shouldn't have to resort to insult to try to score points in a one-sided contest.

More power to your elbow, I say.
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sectionals are factual - interpretation isn't.
 
barjon said:
So let me try and get this, reet. A pace horse increases its speed by lengthening its stride, whereas a speed horse increases its speed by increasing its tempo. Presumably that means that speed horse uses up more energy going faster than a pace horse?
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Wouldn't know - or need to,it's an art,not a science..
 
reet hard said:
Wouldn't know - or need to,it's an art,not a science..
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Doesn’t help me know if I’ve understood it right, reet. I’m trying to understand the difference between a speed horse and a pace one. I’m not trying to score any points - just to understand what you’re getting at.
 
barjon said:
Doesn’t help me know if I’ve understood it right, reet. I’m trying to understand the difference between a speed horse and a pace one. I’m not trying to score any points - just to understand what you’re getting at.
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Don't doubt that,BJ. let me put it like this:
Shaquille qknd of a none too generous pace at Ascot and did similar at Newmarket where he was again advantaged by a tardy start.This clearly marked him as a speed horse to me,and DO can put whatever spin he likes on it,but yesterday just endorsed it.
Pretty sure I'm right about this,and doubt I'll be wrong anytime soon.
Having said all that, it's based purely on a visual impression,but I doubt any amount of mathmetical gyrations will forecast otherwise.
 
reet hard said:
Don't doubt that,BJ. let me put it like this:
Shaquille qknd of a none too generous pace at Ascot and did similar at Newmarket where he was again advantaged by a tardy start.This clearly marked him as a speed horse to me,and DO can put whatever spin he likes on it,but yesterday just endorsed it.
Pretty sure I'm right about this,and doubt I'll be wrong anytime soon.
Having said all that, it's based purely on a visual impression,but I doubt any amount of mathmetical gyrations will forecast otherwise.
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Loosely translated:

I'm right and nobody else's opinion matters.

(I approve. If you know in your heart of hearts you are right you should stick to your certainty in yourself. I'm guilty of similar a lot of the time.)
 
We're heading into philosophical territory now...

Beliefs can't be proven. It's one of the reasons why, for example, religious friction exists throughout the world, always has and always will.
 
No, you're not being practical at all, reet, you're expressing a belief which can't be proved.

Where's the practicality in that?

(I'm not trying to criticise or score points either. Like Bj, I'm trying to understand. Like him, I think the more weapons we have in our armoury the better placed we are to select the most appropriate weapons for beating the books. In terms of 'speed horses', surely if a horse goes from 12s per furlong to 10s per furlong - which sectionals can tell us - while others are only going to 11s, then those sectionals have identified a 'speed horse'? And surely such a 'speed horse' would be obvious to the viewer? I accept that that would be an obvious scenario and that there could be multiple nuanced scenarios in between but I work methodologically - possibly a fault on my part - so I tend to start with the obvious and narrow things down. I think we should be open to learning from each other. I know I am. I've learned lots on here from so many forumites down the 25+ years on here.)
 
As another member once said - you don't like to be wrong about anything.
Your ego problem pisses me off - goodbye!
 
I think Frankel’s comment about Nashwa on another thread is pertinent “ Given how Nashwa went through the early part of the race, a more forward ride sees her beat further.”

If a speed horse is to reserve its burst of acceleration for when it matters then it can’t waste energy knocking itself out trying to keep up with the pace. Maybe that’s what happened to Shaquille and training it out of its tardy starts has proved a Pyrrhic victory. (Thanks to reet for giving me further clarification).
 
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