Blair Defeated!..................

I can't see why this defeat is such a disgrace on Blair. I would see it more of an endorsement that Parliament works (Although I'm not sure it requires the collective brainpower of over 600 individuals to make the decision).
 
I imagine that it is the bullying tone he adopted expecting Labour MPs to fall into line . They didn't.
 
Originally posted by Gareth Flynn@Nov 10 2005, 11:42 AM
If the police say they require 90 days well give them 90 days to further their inquiries if the suspect was not guilty or no case to answer he will be able to claim compensation....
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I suppose its all well and good as long as you're convinced it could never be you at the sharp end of it.
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Oh yes no fear of me being on the end of it at all!!! It won’t be any Tom, Dick, or Harry, you know!! It will be MAIN suspects who the police deem as a threat to national security... the likes of you or me and our families being on the end of a possible bomb or the like, could be the end product?? If 90 day interment is not carried out? and then relevant charges brought...

What now happens if after 28 days of being held the guy/woman decides to scarper and never return him/her knowing they were involved in such activities? There no recourse by the security services as they have got out of the country by any means they can……

And yes I agree like so many other concerns that the police are prone to mistakes as well as anybody else, but the deterrent i.e. would I think deter these fanatical people and go towards getting back to some normality... there was a sunset clause in it to review the said act in one years time.... I don’t therefore see a problem in the 90 days for highly suspected terrorists....

I am far from a supporter of this government but my thinking is based on the fact that common sense does/must prevail and give the security services the backing to some of this sophisticated stuff that's NOW available to most of us i.e. P/C's etc which were NEVER around in the past years and takes time to go through and check out...... full stop
 
It will be MAIN suspects who the police deem as a threat to national security...
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Like Jean Charles de Menesez?

Being locked up for 90 days is not going to deter somebody willing to blow themself up for their cause.
 
Originally posted by Merlin the Magician@Nov 10 2005, 02:05 PM
It will be MAIN suspects who the police deem as a threat to national security... the likes of you or me and our families being on the end of a possible bomb or the like, could be the end product?? If 90 day interment is not carried out? and then relevant charges brought...

What now happens if after 28 days of being held the guy/woman decides to scarper and never return him/her knowing they were involved in such activities? There no recourse by the security services as they have got out of the country by any means they can……

And yes I agree like so many other concerns that the police are prone to mistakes as well as anybody else, but the deterrent i.e. would I think deter these fanatical people and go towards getting back to some normality... there was a sunset clause in it to review the said act in one years time.... I don’t therefore see a problem in the 90 days for highly suspected terrorists....

I am far from a supporter of this government but my thinking is based on the fact that common sense does/must prevail and give the security services the backing to some of this sophisticated stuff that's NOW available to most of us i.e. P/C's etc which were NEVER around in the past years and takes time to go through and check out...... full stop
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Yes i agree fully Merlin, just the thought of 90 days might stop some people even thinking about doing it or getting involved with people that are looking to do it.
 
Erm if the thought of being locked up for life for murder does not stop them - how will being held for 90 days even without charge ?
 
Looks like I've missed something somewhere along the way, but I understood they were looking for the power to detain for a maximum of 90 days. I presumed this would only happen where there were the strongest suspicions to enable them to be investigated fully.

I can't help thinking Blair has put himself in a win-win situation. If anything - God forbid - happened he would be perfectly entitled to say his measures could have helped prevent it and if his bill had gone through the police might have been able to produce strong evidence to justify the bill.

Not that he's the type to gloat (and not that it's a situation in which gloating would be at all appropriate)...

IMHO, if the Tories were in power they'd be looking for a lot more than 90 days.
 
Originally posted by Desert Orchid@Nov 10 2005, 03:01 PM
Looks like I've missed something somewhere along the way, but I understood they were looking for the power to detain for a maximum of 90 days. I presumed this would only happen where there were the strongest suspicions to enable them to be investigated fully.
IMHO, if the Tories were in power they'd be looking for a lot more than 90 days.
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My sentiments entirely D/O.......... also these so called M-P's are obviously lacking and not knowledgeable enough to see the implication of modern day warfare through the electronics capability of these terrorist, its old hat to quote acts outside of this modern day era as there's no comparison really..

With these people who choose martyrdom to highlight their cause as well..... They are fanatical!! so laws should be passed to counteract these fanatical measures.......... :o
 
Although this is hearsay I understand from someone I know who is involved in encryption machine design that the " time to unravel " argument doesn't hold water - either you are going to get the key quickly or never get it.

It is much more likely that the police want more time as the government won't give them enough resources

Please note that contrary to what SL reports that apparently the hold without trial for terrorist times are

Spain 5 days
US 7 days
Australia 14days
UK 14 days going up to 28 days

90 looks a bit out of kilter
 
This 90 days was not sine die for the 90 days it would be reviewed by a highcourt judge every 7 days.... and after a year revised, re the sunset clause.....

It was not a case where by they throw away the key for the said duration!!!! so again I can't see where the problem really is.... it was proposed to HELP us and would only be used as and when...

Not to past sentence on every subject ..... Only just these so called modern day terrorist regardless of their nationality/religous beliefs............. :rolleyes:
 
They could be kept on the Isle of Man where although there is plenty room,you can't swing a cat.
 
The argument that it offers extra time for law enforcement to break encrypted documents on the suspect's computer is hard to take seriously given that to crack the encryption used for such things as protecting your credit card number when you buy something online (128-bit SSL), or encrypting information stored on your hard drive (PGP with up to 512-bit keys), would take significantly longer than the age of the universe using brute force techniques (i.e. testing every possible combination of the key).
 
We're just not being blown to bits enough, it seems. If we were suffering more regular, unpredictable massacres courtesy of Mr Zarqawi's happy band of 'martyrs', we might examine the notion of an extended detention period a little more intently. As I understood the proposal, as Merlin and I have said, it was:

Detention at home or in a normal prison cell (nothing like Long Kesh, or concentration camps like Guantanamo Bay, let's be serious, please)

Every WEEK the case of the detainee to be reviewed by the courts

The detainee to be released if insufficient evidence is produced for further detention

The 90 days was to be the MAXIMUM period for detention, although I don't know what the plan was after that. Charged? Cleared spotlessly and compensated for loss of employment income or Giros?

Ardross, presumably all those countries you mention can reapply to extend those minimal detention periods if their various intelligences bring forward compelling-enough reasons to the courts?

About the tragic death of young Mr de Menezes: we have had tragic deaths of other, innocent people caused by the Police firing on men they have assumed to be armed, and during high speed pursuits of presumed or actual criminals. All real or perceived wrongdoing brings with it heightened tension, and the possibility for terrible mistakes to be made - like the Americans fatally firing on a British personnel carrier in the Gulf war, and killing nine young men. Sometimes, wires get crossed, decisions get taken too late, and so on. Intelligence and police work is no different from other high risk work - mistakes can be made which cost lives. Sometimes the baddies get killed, sometimes bystanders get killed, sometimes other innocent people get killed. If human beings would stop being beastly to one another, none of these things would happen. But we won't, and so there will be the inevitable fall-out from our constant desire for doing wrong, either in petty crime or grandiose malevolence. Don't entirely blame our services for the death of Mr de Menezes - blame the evil reason why they were tracking him in the first place.

And please spare a thought today for Jordan - a friendly, warm-hearted country without the benefit of vast oil wealth, always welcoming to foreigners and tolerant of other religions. Its hospitality, including the safe homing of tens of thousands of displaced Palestinians over many years, and its desire to be far, far removed from any radicalism, has been very cruelly 'rewarded' by Zarqawi, a Jordanian himself. I have had the great pleasure of working with many Palestinians who were naturalized Jordanians, and many native Jordanians. They are wonderfully tolerant, funny, charming, hard-working people and they have been dealt a very cruel blow, especially as the country depends so much on tourism - sharing the same waters as Eilat, in Israel, with which they have enjoyed a peaceful relationship for years. The kings of the country have worked very hard to maintain excellent diplomatic relations with the West and Israel, in spite of taking in the refugees which that country displaced. I'm sure that following today's arrests, a 90-day detention period might seem pretty tame to those whose families just got blown to pieces at the happy wedding reception.
 
The one good to come out of the tragedy in Jordan is that true Muslims took to the streets to demonstrate against the bombers. I look forward to that happening in IRaq.
 
I expected you to have more insight than that, Maurice. The people blown to bits by the DAILY bombers in Iraq are Iraqis who other Iraqis don't like, not by Al-Queda. Did you not actually watch any of the joyful events in that country when Saddam's statue was toppled, or the happiness in the streets back then?

This is Jordan's FIRST atrocity at the hands of Al-Queda's goon al-Zarqawi. It's not factional brutality based on old sectarian grievances, which is the Iraqi situation. You can hardly expect Iraqis to daily abandon trying to get on with what passes for normal life by parading for the cameras (they've done that, and do it following the constant funerals for the bomb victims, but it's not newsworthy as it's now so commonplace).

Permit me to point out the difference: Al-Queda's worldwide events programme on the one hand - sometimes abroad, sometimes showing at a city near you; and factional bombings in Iraq on the other. Not the same.

If your city suffered ambush bombs going off here and there every day, how many times do you think you'd be leaving your job to go and protest against your aggressors? Especially when your city's already bristling with foreign and national troops, ready to fire on any overheated situation? You'd make yourself a really smashing target for the aggressors AND the troops - not the brightest idea, is it?
 
Originally posted by Ardross@Nov 10 2005, 07:16 PM
Please note that contrary to what SL reports that apparently the hold without trial for terrorist times are

Spain 5 days
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Up until very recently you could be held without charge for up to one year by the Spanish authorities (certainly in Andalucia you could be), and not just under terrorism charges. Remember the Irish trainer Joey Browne who started training in Mijas? He was held for something like 9 months less than 3 years ago when a load of drugs were discovered in the barn where he kept his horse feed.
 
Bottom of page 2, sweetheart. I haven't gone quite so ga-ga that I'm replying to non-existent posts! But give me time, give me time...

I know, AC, my 25% Irish is up on things politic these days! (No shit!) The other 75%, languid English, sneers 'who gives a fuck anyway?' and reaches for another large Bailey's over ice. But as much as I can, I prefer to discuss things from as reasonably factual a point of view as possible, even if it does end with me being thrown through the saloon doors, and told never to ride back into this yer town again.
 
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