Bloodstock Assistance Required
- Thread starter Ballydoyle
- Start date
Kicking King
At the Start
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2012
- Messages
- 40
Not really.......... for the fee they are willing to spend the subject foal will have a fairly similar pedigree to multiple group winner Regime
Yes, really. He has a double RR on his record, which bodes 'iffy' if not actually 'ill' to me. Why bother with these half-cocked animals? Pay around the mark where you know there is at least honesty and soundness. The subject foal may have all sorts of similar pedigrees to all sorts of animals, KK, but for those sires which throw a really crap foal every now and then, it'll be your roll of the dice to chance getting it.
Do you breed horses, btw? If you do, then why would you send your mare to one of the 75% of the bunch that Miesque feels are in the crap drawer? It's not just about conformational failings, lousy action and a predisposition to go lame or bleed - there's the mental factor, too, which should be figured in as much as any other.
There is always easy talk of culling poor mares, but you never hear the slightest whisper about culling stallions which are no longer, or have never, produced anything near to their own racing ability. And, to be frank, I would not place a double refusal to race under 'glittering career'.
Yes, anyone can breed something on the cheap, but it'll be a false economy to keep when no-one buys it: from a not-very-good mare with a possible problem, by a stallion with racing issues? How much are you going to pay for that at the sales? You aren't, are you - be honest.
I wouldn't encourage anyone to pursue breeding without a sound mare who has either raced and won a few times, preferably gaining a bit of black type, or who although may be unraced, has a desirable sireline which is in fashion. The business is now so super-competitive as people really won't part with their money as carelessly as they did before, and the market in the UK for youngsters has been quite a lot replaced by buying readymades for syndication. The top echelons of buyers and consignors won't give this foal one glance, let alone two. The middle ones won't be interested, either, as there is SO much available from sires in the mid-range of £4-10K out of solid mares. So you're looking at the very bottom of the marketplace, the equivalent of Class 6 runners.
You just look at an average race card these days and see plenty of most excellent names siring the competitors. At random, here's a Class 5 Maiden at Lingfield: BAHAMIAN BOUNTY (from whom our contributor Songsheet bred FAREER, Britannia Cup winner), PICCOLO (stalwart sire of AW runners), SINGSPIEL, COMPTON PLACE, KYLLACHY. CAPE CROSS had a runner in a Class 6 Seller, as did ISHIGURU and TAGULA. TOBOUGG, IN THE WINGS, CAPTAIN RIO, ROCK OF GIBRALTAR, DOYEN and MOTIVATOR both with Class 6 handicappers. You can pick out any number of 'fairly similar pedigrees' to group winners from that lot! But if at their prices they're still throwing vast quantities into the lowest of the ranks, the chances of you breeding the one from the dozens they produce that enters the top echelons is a pure lottery. And if you've selected an inferior stallion, and put a dodgy mare to him...
So there's no such thing as pedigree guaranteeing anything. Some sires are transmitting their abilities more often than not, like GALILEO, but the price range indicates that. You look at those guys above, and you'd think your foal's nailed on as The Next Big Thing. But you have to help some of them along with truly decent mares, too. And for others, they're just a busted flush at being daddies, like DOUBLE TRIGGER and PHOENIX REACH.
You breed the best to the best to obtain as near a specific result (sprinter, for example) that you want, and if you can't, you didn't oughter. By that, I don't mean 'best' in terms of stallion price, but 'best' in terms of the results they get, including soundness and durability - something especially important with NH in mind. Racing's clogged with fixtures full of underperforming horses (yes, I know many of them are loved by their owners, yadda-yadda) by underperforming sires out of mares who should have been donated to riding schools. Why keep adding to the bottom layer?
Do you breed horses, btw? If you do, then why would you send your mare to one of the 75% of the bunch that Miesque feels are in the crap drawer? It's not just about conformational failings, lousy action and a predisposition to go lame or bleed - there's the mental factor, too, which should be figured in as much as any other.
There is always easy talk of culling poor mares, but you never hear the slightest whisper about culling stallions which are no longer, or have never, produced anything near to their own racing ability. And, to be frank, I would not place a double refusal to race under 'glittering career'.
Yes, anyone can breed something on the cheap, but it'll be a false economy to keep when no-one buys it: from a not-very-good mare with a possible problem, by a stallion with racing issues? How much are you going to pay for that at the sales? You aren't, are you - be honest.
I wouldn't encourage anyone to pursue breeding without a sound mare who has either raced and won a few times, preferably gaining a bit of black type, or who although may be unraced, has a desirable sireline which is in fashion. The business is now so super-competitive as people really won't part with their money as carelessly as they did before, and the market in the UK for youngsters has been quite a lot replaced by buying readymades for syndication. The top echelons of buyers and consignors won't give this foal one glance, let alone two. The middle ones won't be interested, either, as there is SO much available from sires in the mid-range of £4-10K out of solid mares. So you're looking at the very bottom of the marketplace, the equivalent of Class 6 runners.
You just look at an average race card these days and see plenty of most excellent names siring the competitors. At random, here's a Class 5 Maiden at Lingfield: BAHAMIAN BOUNTY (from whom our contributor Songsheet bred FAREER, Britannia Cup winner), PICCOLO (stalwart sire of AW runners), SINGSPIEL, COMPTON PLACE, KYLLACHY. CAPE CROSS had a runner in a Class 6 Seller, as did ISHIGURU and TAGULA. TOBOUGG, IN THE WINGS, CAPTAIN RIO, ROCK OF GIBRALTAR, DOYEN and MOTIVATOR both with Class 6 handicappers. You can pick out any number of 'fairly similar pedigrees' to group winners from that lot! But if at their prices they're still throwing vast quantities into the lowest of the ranks, the chances of you breeding the one from the dozens they produce that enters the top echelons is a pure lottery. And if you've selected an inferior stallion, and put a dodgy mare to him...
So there's no such thing as pedigree guaranteeing anything. Some sires are transmitting their abilities more often than not, like GALILEO, but the price range indicates that. You look at those guys above, and you'd think your foal's nailed on as The Next Big Thing. But you have to help some of them along with truly decent mares, too. And for others, they're just a busted flush at being daddies, like DOUBLE TRIGGER and PHOENIX REACH.
You breed the best to the best to obtain as near a specific result (sprinter, for example) that you want, and if you can't, you didn't oughter. By that, I don't mean 'best' in terms of stallion price, but 'best' in terms of the results they get, including soundness and durability - something especially important with NH in mind. Racing's clogged with fixtures full of underperforming horses (yes, I know many of them are loved by their owners, yadda-yadda) by underperforming sires out of mares who should have been donated to riding schools. Why keep adding to the bottom layer?
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Kicking King
At the Start
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2012
- Messages
- 40
I agree with most of what you are saying Krizon but Dr. Massini is no bad sire......his statistics prove this...... Most Likely his refusals to race were down to human error??
Of course we will get Galileo progeny etc. running in sellers but the sadlers wells cheap influence through Dr. M with the Mare in question throws up a cross of ancestors that has worked before and therefore increases the chances of this syndicate getting a decent racehorse!
Of course we will get Galileo progeny etc. running in sellers but the sadlers wells cheap influence through Dr. M with the Mare in question throws up a cross of ancestors that has worked before and therefore increases the chances of this syndicate getting a decent racehorse!
trudij
Senior Jockey
While we are on a bloodstock thread - if anyone would like to buy me lot 29 at Cheltenham on Saturday, she would be a very welcome early birthday present....
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Why not try Schiaparelli he's £2000 stands at Overbury was high class on the track, son's of Monsun are tough & very genuine and will be high class national hunt sires in years to come (Getaway and Shirocco) and he's out of an Old Vic mare who we all know about
KK: SADLER'S WELLS bonked thousands of mares in his time, so his influence is as rampant as Japanese knotweed - it's as likely to be in the best and in the worst examples on a course these days, since his books of mares were very far from limited by numbers, or elite. Actually, I didn't say you see GALILEOs in Sellers! He is a sire who is transmitting his abilities more often than not.
Honestly, unless you know that humans caused DR MASSINI to refuse to race, you'd have to take it as you read it - the horse didn't want to go. He may have been sulking because his groom pissed him off that morning, or he might just have been ornery. You could say that MOONAX's biting and kicking habits, which severely injured one or two people, was down to human influence, but I'd just say he was a pig! Talented, but still porcine in his behaviour. :lol:
Can't say we don't get our moneysworth on here in terms of good debates and topics! Enjoyable as always.
Honestly, unless you know that humans caused DR MASSINI to refuse to race, you'd have to take it as you read it - the horse didn't want to go. He may have been sulking because his groom pissed him off that morning, or he might just have been ornery. You could say that MOONAX's biting and kicking habits, which severely injured one or two people, was down to human influence, but I'd just say he was a pig! Talented, but still porcine in his behaviour. :lol:
Can't say we don't get our moneysworth on here in terms of good debates and topics! Enjoyable as always.
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Irish Stamp
Forum Moderator
There'd be plenty worse lots in that sale than More Talk Trudi
Miesque
At the Start
My riding horse is a relative of this and my two HB's have been quirky as sod if talented.
I'll have 28 for RoR classes please!
trudij
Senior Jockey
They can be as quirky a they like (within reason)as long as they are good....
Not looked at the catalogue properly yet - only found out about her from my email yesterday!! (I'm glad I'm not the only one who had half an eye on them for showing while I look !) - who is 28?
Not looked at the catalogue properly yet - only found out about her from my email yesterday!! (I'm glad I'm not the only one who had half an eye on them for showing while I look !) - who is 28?
Miesque
At the Start
28 is The Mighty Milan - has the paces to make a decent dressage horse and do well showing.
Irish Stamp
Forum Moderator
He'd be a blooming expensive dressage horse I'd imagine Miesque!
Miesque
At the Start
He'd be a blooming expensive dressage horse I'd imagine Miesque!
The last dressage horse I sat on cost in the region of 160k....I reckon TMM would be cheap in comparison!
Irish Stamp
Forum Moderator
Fair enough though I'm not sure he'd be too far off that come Friday - particularly given how easily parted UK NH owners and cash are
Look out for Westaway at the sale too - will be a better horse on better ground
Look out for Westaway at the sale too - will be a better horse on better ground
Miesque
At the Start
Fair enough though I'm not sure he'd be too far off that come Friday - particularly given how easily parted UK NH owners and cash are
Look out for Westaway at the sale too - will be a better horse on better ground
Now, now be nice...those UK NH owners pay lots of people's bills! Will have a nosey at Westaway.
Irish Stamp
Forum Moderator
They sure do - they seem to be keeping half of Ireland in £££££
Westaway's had three starts so far and was travelling best when falling 3 out on his second - slightly disappointed he didn't win by further in his Maiden but still a horse of some potential.
Westaway's had three starts so far and was travelling best when falling 3 out on his second - slightly disappointed he didn't win by further in his Maiden but still a horse of some potential.