CASPIAN CAVIAR GOLD CUP 13 December

EC1

EC1

On a break
Joined
May 7, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
late 1960's early 70's
Edgardo Sol
Sound Investment
Caid Du Berlais
Easter Meteor
Splash Of Ginge
Darna
Attaglance
What A Warrior
Niceonefrankie
Carrigmorna King
No Buts
Tatenen
Ericht
Headly´s Bridge
Barrakilla
Workbench

well..what wins this then?

Weather forecast there all week is pretty dry..so probably GOOD going

my initial figures

168 Caid Du Berlais
165 Headly´s Bridge
163 Tatenen
162 No Buts
161 Workbench
156 What A Warrior
154 Edgardo Sol
152 Sound Investment
150 Barrakilla
148 Ericht
147 Splash Of Ginge
147 Darna
145 Attaglance
145 Niceonefrankie
141 Easter Meteor
141 Carrigmorna King
 
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It's a handicap what do you expect? The tingle creek was like the hounds of the baskervilles for gods sake.
Be nice to have a bit of decent ground though, if it is genuinely good I'll back ericht each way.
 
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Big jumping handicaps aren't judged in the same way as flat ones. The Becher on Saturday was far higher in quality than this affair.
 
That's why a horse nearly old enough to smoke won the becher!!!! The same yoke that couldn't win an amateur rider race the run before?
 
Euronymous said:
Big jumping handicaps aren't judged in the same way as flat ones. The Becher on Saturday was far higher in quality than this affair.
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in what way?..it had a similar rated top weight to this

in fact the Becher should attract a better field than this..its worth more money..so your argument looks back to front..you should have been decrying the becher and biggin this up
 
The Becher hasn't got the storied history this race has. Plus there were types in that race like Mendip Express and Just a Par with far more scope than anything in this race.
 
The handicapper has been fairly leinent with Caid du Berlais so I'd expect him to be in the mix again. Attaglance should be suited by the better ground and has run well at Cheltenham before. I'd put it between these two.
 
I am right behind Euro on this

Anyway I much prefer my entries....none of the above would have been in the handicap.............none would even be asked to go by the trainers.

This was once one of the best races on the calendar what on earth happened?



1964 Flying Wild 8 10-06 Tommy Carberry Dan Moore
1965 Flyingbolt 6 12-06 Pat Taaffe Tom Dreaper
1966 The Laird 5 10-09 Jeff King Bob Turnell
1969 Titus Oates 7 11-13 Ron Barry Gordon W. Richards
1970 Simian 8 11-08 David Moore Auriol Sinclair
1971 Leap Frog 7 12-01 Val O'Brien Tom Dreaper
1972 Arctic Bow 7 10-12 Andrew Turnell Bob Turnell
1973 Pendil 8 12-07 Richard Pitman Fred Winter
1975 Easby Abbey 8 11-10 Ron Barry Peter Easterby
1977 Even Melody 8 11-02 Colin Hawkins Neville Crump
1982 Observe 6 10-11 John Francome Fred Winter
1983 Fifty Dollars More 8 11-10 Richard Linley Fred Winter
1984 Beau Ranger 6 09-10 John Hurst John Thorne
1985 Combs Ditch 9 11-09 Colin Brown David Elsworth
1988 Pegwell Bay 7 10-13 Brendan Powell Tim Forster
1989 Clever Folly 9 10-04 Neale Doughty Gordon W. Richards
1994 Dublin Flyer 8 10-02 Brendan Powell Tim Forster
2006 Exotic Dancer 6 11-04 Tony Dobbin Jonjo O'Neill

5/6 Flyingbolt 9/4 Pendil 4/1 Exotic Dancer, The Laird 6/1 Titus Oats Combs Ditch 10/1bar
 
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Euro and Tanlic are right - it is a shabby affair when looked at in a historical context.
 
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Agree historically, but compare recent 'big' races and it's standard.
The whole card Saturday is somewhat underwhelming, 3 races have been reopened.
 
i think you could cherry pick in that way from 50 years worth of winners and run any race down tbh..whats the point?

its purely down to prize money..the becher was worth more for instance

if you cut any race prize money you will bring the standard down..i don't understand why its worth singling one race out

we could do this with any race if prize money is less.

its not an issue to me personally..its a race..with a winner in it

too much whinging about..ooh this is a poor renewal..ffs..appreciate what you have

Euro..your cup is half empty at the best of times..cheer up...we don't have Kauto Star's around every year..we don't have the same prize money in every race we used to..just get used to it

i don't think we've had one big race this NH season where you haven't said..poor renewal...are they poor?...is a race where the top weight is 160 a better race than a 150?..if 160 horse is weighted out of it then it won't play a part in the finish..if next one down is a 155 horse ..doesn't play a part in finish..then third one down is a 150 horse..then its same as a race where top weight is 150 where that horse is competetive
 
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This race should be throwing-out potential Ryanair Chase winners. Instead, it's throwing out horses who will keep the weight down for the yard's second-string in the Mildmay of Flete.

It's a pile of oud shi*te.
 
Grasshopper said:
This race should be throwing-out potential Ryanair Chase winners. Instead, it's throwing out horses who will keep the weight down for the yard's second-string in the Mildmay of Flete.

It's a pile of oud shi*te.
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its a race in keeping with the prize money on offer..you are hardly likely to attract the best horses when they can get more money elsewhere..its not the race thats no good..its how things are now

ffs stop whinging and get the bloody winner found:p
 
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EC1 said:
i think you could cherry pick in that way from 50 years worth of winners and run any race down tbh..whats the point?

its purely down to prize money..the becher was worth more for instance

if you cut any race prize money you will bring the standard down..i don't understand why its worth singling one race out

we could do this with any race if prize money is less.

its not an issue to me personally..its a race..with a winner in it

too much whinging about..ooh this is a poor renewal..ffs..appreciate what you have

Euro..your cup is half empty at the best of times..cheer up...we don't have Kauto Star's around every year..we don't have the same prize money in every race we used to..just get used to it

i don't think we've had one big race this NH season where you haven't said..poor renewal...are they poor?...is a race where the top weight is 160 a better race than a 150?..if 160 horse is weighted out of it then it won't play a part in the finish..if next one down is a 155 horse ..doesn't play a part in finish..then third one down is a 150 horse..then its same as a race where top weight is 150 where that horse is competetive
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We have more big valuable handicap chases than ever before surely. Its fine by me. . There is a big handicap chase at Ascot a week later that is relatively recent i think? If that wasnt there it would be "what a rubbish card" Cant have it both ways. The real concern is the smaller fields that are becoming commonplace in certain races
 
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well i checked 2007 race at random..it was worth 85k to the winner then..its now worth 56k

so it doesn't take a genius to work out that you aren't going to get the same level of horse running in it

so saying...oooh its not race it used to be is sort of stating the bleedin obvious isn't it

what do you expect when 34% of winners prize is missing?

its still a good race for us...and if they bump prize back up it will then get those better horses

its not many weeks ago Euro were saying how he preferred lower class races for betting in..now he's got a lower class of this..he complaining..heads spinning here with the contradictions
 
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Tanlic said:
I am right behind Euro on this

Anyway I much prefer my entries....none of the above would have been in the handicap.............none would even be asked to go by the trainers.

This was once one of the best races on the calendar what on earth happened?



1964 Flying Wild 8 10-06 Tommy Carberry Dan Moore
1965 Flyingbolt 6 12-06 Pat Taaffe Tom Dreaper
1966 The Laird 5 10-09 Jeff King Bob Turnell
1969 Titus Oates 7 11-13 Ron Barry Gordon W. Richards
1970 Simian 8 11-08 David Moore Auriol Sinclair
1971 Leap Frog 7 12-01 Val O'Brien Tom Dreaper
1972 Arctic Bow 7 10-12 Andrew Turnell Bob Turnell
1973 Pendil 8 12-07 Richard Pitman Fred Winter
1975 Easby Abbey 8 11-10 Ron Barry Peter Easterby
1977 Even Melody 8 11-02 Colin Hawkins Neville Crump
1982 Observe 6 10-11 John Francome Fred Winter
1983 Fifty Dollars More 8 11-10 Richard Linley Fred Winter
1984 Beau Ranger 6 09-10 John Hurst John Thorne
1985 Combs Ditch 9 11-09 Colin Brown David Elsworth
1988 Pegwell Bay 7 10-13 Brendan Powell Tim Forster
1989 Clever Folly 9 10-04 Neale Doughty Gordon W. Richards
1994 Dublin Flyer 8 10-02 Brendan Powell Tim Forster
2006 Exotic Dancer 6 11-04 Tony Dobbin Jonjo O'Neill

5/6 Flyingbolt 9/4 Pendil 4/1 Exotic Dancer, The Laird 6/1 Titus Oats Combs Ditch 10/1bar
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Yehbut.. yehbut...yehbut...

The majority of ones in that list were young and how well known were they at the time. The Laird was pretty much unspeakably young. How often did 5yos run in the race in those days given not many try these days and they're all French bred.

There has to be the chance that a good few of Saturday's field will become established in better races in due course but I admit just looking at the field had me wondering who most of them were.

CDB went up a ridiculously lenient 5lbs for the Mackeson. He has to be a deserving favourite but I haven't checked anything else.
 
You are talking top notch chasers and every one of them Moehat. The very mention of there names had you making damn sure you would not be missing the race.

It''s fine and well saying it's not worth as much by comparison but to me in this day and age that is down to failure.

The problem with UK racing on that score is their marketing. The people who are running racing and the media have somewhere along the line lost there way.

Geezus only last night I was listening to someone talking about do we need a celebrity like Claire Balding presenting major meetings.........She's IMO does racing no favours and they could surely find someone better?

Some courses seem to be terribly managed.

Sandown was always one of the top courses in the country................Arkle ran the greatest race of his life there in the Gallagher Gold Cup.......whatever happened to that race? Do they even have a 3 mile grade 1 chase anymore?

They have allowed the old Whitbread to become just another race and the turn out for that is every bit as poor as the old Mackeson on Saturday is.

They have one decent horse race a season that attracts the best around and that's the Tingle Creek......For a course steeped in NH history it has probably slipped downhill more than any other.

Fantastic place to watch racing from on the box but unless it has been drastically change in the last 15 years the place is an absolute dump.....I got the shock of my life when I went there.......Courses like Haydock, Ascot Cheltenham put it to shame or did 15 years ago.

If your marketing in rubbish then racing will follow..........Where's the Pepsi Gold Cup or the Coca Cola Gold Cup......Or the Barr's Irn Bru trophy Hurdle....names people can relate too.........who the heck are Caspian Caviar" I'm sure wee Jimmy Smith from Essex cant wait to watch that race the minute he hears the name lol

At least everyone in the country knew who Mackeson were and Massey Ferguson, Whitbread, Schweppes all household names. Unless they are selling Caspain Caviar with mushy peas and chips these days no one would have a scoobie do who the new sponsors are.

Marketing is about getting your name out there and the best way to do it is on the back of someone well known........Terry Wogan uses Gillette aftershave not Tanlic uses Gillette aftershave which would sell about 1 can of the stuff to my brother.

Having been in marketing I can honestly say racing hasn't got a clue.

They would have been much better getting someone like Heinz to sponsor the race and made up the cash shortfall plus a bit themselves to attract the best around.......In the long run the more famous a race becomes the more willing good sponsors are willing to throw money at you.


btw Moehat Flying Wild beat Bonne Notte (best novice at the time) and Arkle in her race, The rest won dozens upon dozens of races between them and were all capable of winning at the highest level

There's perhaps one in this years race but most of them would have carried minimum weight if not overweight to run. in those races

Most of them were very well known at the time.....pity we don't know what price they went of at but the weights they carried gives and indication of their abilities. I can remember all of them pretty well and they were habitual winners
 
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Is it chicken & egg, though, or horse and cart?

Did racing approach the sponsors or vice versa? Can the courses help it if some unheard-of fish-egg producer is the only one willing to put up a prize?

Forgive the pedant in me, tan, but Saturday's race is the old Massey-Ferguson, not the Mackeson. That was the order in which they happened, Mackeson (November) - Massey-Ferguson (December). I tend still to call them by their original names as they were around for so many years. The more recent swift turnover of sponsors makes them no more than marketing opportunists committed only to what the race does for them in the short term. Who can remember whether Thomas Pink sponsored the November or December race or whether they produced pants or tights?

I still call them the Mackeson, Massey-Ferguson, SGB, Black & White, Benson & Hedges, etc. If a sponsor struck a 10+-year deal for one race (a la Pertemps) I could see me getting round to the idea of calling it by its name.
 
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Sponsors change and so does the world of business. I'll always think of this race as the Tripleprint, but of course with the advent of digital cameras nobody sends films off to be printed any more. Likewise the Mackeson - all the people who used to drink it have died off (though my mum still sticks a couple in the Xmas cake).


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