Change of policy

C

Cantoris

At the Start
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The bit I like is "rather than have all the horses with one trainer, he thought that having a blend of trainers was an attractive idea." Jasus I could have told him that years ago for a small commission!!

Sheikh to send yearlings to six Irish trainers

By Tony O'Hehir7.50AM 2 NOV 2009
SHEIKH Mohammed is to have horses in training in Ireland next year following a decision to send 12 yearlings to six different trainers to be prepared for the 2010 season.

The sheikh's return to Irish racing was confirmed on Sunday by his bloodstock adviser John Ferguson, who said: "Sheikh Mohammed felt that he would like to have horses in training in Ireland next year.
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Sheikh Mohammed: to send 12 yearlings to be trained in Ireland
PICTURE: Edward Whitaker
"Ireland has a number of talented horsemen and, rather than have all the horses with one trainer, he thought that having a blend of trainers was an attractive idea."

John Oxx, Jim Bolger, Dermot Weld, Ger Lyons, Michael Halford and David Marnane will each train two horses for Sheikh Mohammed.

Ferguson added: "John Oxx has been a friend of Sheikh Mohammed for many years and trained for him in the past.

"Jim Bolger not only trained New Approach [for Princess Haya of Jordan] but he also trained Jet Ski Lady to win an Oaks for Sheikh Mohammed's late brother, Sheikh Maktoum, while Dermot Weld trains forSheikh Hamdan.

"It was also decided to support three younger talented trainers in Ger Lyons, David Marnane and Michael Halford, all of whom will be training for the family for the first time."
 
Sheikh back in Ireland

SHEIKH Mohammed is sending 12 yearlings to six different trainers for next year.John Oxx, Jim Bolger, Dermot Weld, Ger Lyons, Michael Halford and David Marnane are the six should be interesting.He must be sick of that other knob:p
 
Not so sure it is a change of policy either - would imagine if they prove to be any good they will be off to Godolphin.

But really when you see how much Sheikh Mo supports the game, you realise how critical his interest in the sport is.
 
So what's the reasoning behind it. 2 yearlings each ! Doesn't seem like you could draw any conclusions based on giving trainers 2 yearlings each. They could all be crap or maybe one gets two good ones etc etc.....or is it just a statement of intent.
 
My comments were more in relation to Suroor. You'd think at this stage Sheikh Mo would go back to basics with Godolphin. He was very successful when he had a bunch of forty or fifty horses rather than 150/200. If I was him, I would pick one older established trainer (Oxx the natural choice) and one younger trainer, just like the Aga has done in France. Split the 12 horses between the two of them.

Has Sheikh Mo given up on trying to win the Kentucky Derby and the Melbourne Cup (don't think he's won either yet)??
 
Cantoris said:
My comments were more in relation to Suroor. You'd think at this stage Sheikh Mo would go back to basics with Godolphin. He was very successful when he had a bunch of forty or fifty horses rather than 150/200. If I was him, I would pick one older established trainer (Oxx the natural choice) and one younger trainer, just like the Aga has done in France. Split the 12 horses between the two of them.

Has Sheikh Mo given up on trying to win the Kentucky Derby and the Melbourne Cup (don't think he's won either yet)??
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He just came close to the latter.

He will win the Kentucky Derby too when he leaves his horses in the states with Metee or McLaughlin.
 
Mickey the Marcher said:
He just came close to the latter
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Yeah could have made me look like a fool but how can Dermot Weld send three horses down to Oz and win with two of them? There is more than just throwing horses at it. Knowing which horses can do it is key and with such a big string going in several different directions, I'm just not sure they can do it.
 
Cantoris said:
Yeah could have made me look like a fool but how can Dermot Weld send three horses down to Oz and win with two of them? There is more than just throwing horses at it. Knowing which horses can do it is key and with such a big string going in several different directions, I'm just not sure they can do it.
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Weld has not won it with Vinnie Roe and Profound Beauty. He obviously has to be more selective given that he does not have the financing like Godolphin....but in fairness Godolphin have gone very close to winning it twice now.
 
Galileo said:
Weld has not won it with Vinnie Roe and Profound Beauty. He obviously has to be more selective given that he does not have the financing like Godolphin....but in fairness Godolphin have gone very close to winning it twice now.
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Yes, it's just as well Weld has a constraint on finances or he would be seen as an ordinary trainer, flinging mud against the wall until it sticks. Weld is like Oxx, he sends the right horses to the right races in the right places and they do the job consistently. Go and Go another fine example.
 
Cantoris said:
Yes, it's just as well Weld has a constraint on finances or he would be seen as an ordinary trainer, flinging mud against the wall until it sticks. Weld is like Oxx, he sends the right horses to the right races in the right places and they do the job consistently. Go and Go another fine example.
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Godolphin turn up at these meetings because they are an international outfit under the banner of promoting Dubai around the world - I think their international successes speak for themselves.

Oxx and Weld have brought horses abroad that have run stinkers too - naturally enough not in the same numbers.
 
So what do we think of his choice of trainers. Halford at 7% runners to winners isn't exactly setting the world alight. Not having huge success with the Aga's either (I don't know how many he gets ) Marnane proven ? Lyons is a good choice I think.
 
For Halford, doesn't it all depend on the types of horses the Aga sent him? You'd think the decent types would have gone to Oxx, Dupre etc and balance to the smaller trainers. He can clearly train horses, I just wonder will he be able to win group 1s with them. The same goes for Lyons. People talk of how he will be great when he gets the ammunition but Hannon buys horses for similar money and gets group wins and sales race wins out of them year in year out. Ok, Hannon probably has more mud to fling than Lyons, but he hits the target with regularity. I think Lyons has an awful lot still to prove. I was interested to see how Deegan did this year with the Abdullah horses but not really been mapped. Anyone with a view on him?
 
I was interested to see how Deegan did this year with the Abdullah horses but not really been mapped. Anyone with a view on him?
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I think he is hard on the horses. He gets them extra fit, generally runs them on or near the pace (so Dundalk suits) and tends to race them in spurts, maybe 3 times in three weeks. An awful lot of them seem to be under pressure earlier than you would expect from their finishing position, not a good sign IMO.

That's my own impression, I'm not sure if it stacks up with the stats, I haven't checked. A horse called Fereeji caught my attention last year and the year before that, and there are a number of other less extereme examples I've noticed with him in mind. Sure he won a couple of times, but he had one shocking hard race after another to the point that I winced when I saw him on the racecard.
 
In fairness to Deegan, he is in the position alot of trainers starting out are in - once they are given the goods they want to ensure the horses are fit and ready to do themselves justice on the track and give a good impression.

Marnane has the right connections but I think he is potentially very good as well.
 
Cantoris said:
For Halford, doesn't it all depend on the types of horses the Aga sent him? You'd think the decent types would have gone to Oxx, Dupre etc and balance to the smaller trainers. He can clearly train horses, I just wonder will he be able to win group 1s with them. The same goes for Lyons. People talk of how he will be great when he gets the ammunition but Hannon buys horses for similar money and gets group wins and sales race wins out of them year in year out. Ok, Hannon probably has more mud to fling than Lyons, but he hits the target with regularity. I think Lyons has an awful lot still to prove. I was interested to see how Deegan did this year with the Abdullah horses but not really been mapped. Anyone with a view on him?
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Yes he can clearly train handicappers. I think you nailed it with.
I just wonder will he be able to win group 1s with them.
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He made his name with Eastern appeal, Miss Emma and Nicks Nikita amongst others in 06. It has taken time for him to start firing in a few winners in his new premises. When handicapped he places his horses well but I just get the feeling he doesn't really know what he has when he's training one until it's well into it's career.

I don't think your comparing like with like Lyons/Hannon, The Hannons seem toi have a template for buying and training. First and foremost they are 2yr old types. Most don't train on. I don't think you can say that about Lyons. Obviously racing opportunities in this country put all the trainers in this Country at a disadvantage too. How many does Lyons have in his yard v Hannons.

The only thing I know about Deegan is that he can train a 2yr old. Usually indicates a fella in need of making a name for himself ...fast.
 
Sheikh said:
I don't think your comparing like with like Lyons/Hannon, The Hannons seem toi have a template for buying and training. First and foremost they are 2yr old types. Most don't train on. I don't think you can say that about Lyons.
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Lyons admits himself he is a two year old trainer who ends up with horses as three year olds. He has spent a lot of money on his horses over the last few years and had a few very expensive ones sent to him and in my opinion, he has underachieved.
 
Cantoris said:
Lyons admits himself he is a two year old trainer who ends up with horses as three year olds. He has spent a lot of money on his horses over the last few years and had a few very expensive ones sent to him and in my opinion, he has underachieved.
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I think he needs to amend his mission statement than because Rockazar,Romeo's on fire,Summit Surge, Palazzone, Dohasa, Leandros, An Tadh, etc etc would beg to differ. I think he does a good job all round.

As far as underachiveing is concerned well i don't think anyone can prove it either way until he is given a top horse with proven ability to work with as being expensive doesn't make them good.
 
Sheikh said:
I think he needs to amend his mission statement than because Rockazar,Romeo's on fire,Summit Surge, Palazzone, Dohasa, Leandros, An Tadh, etc etc would beg to differ. I think he does a good job all round.

As far as underachiveing is concerned well i don't think anyone can prove it either way until he is given a top horse with proven ability to work with as being expensive doesn't make them good.
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But those horses mentioned are no better than the Halford horses mentioned previously or Deauville Vision. Summit Surge and An Tadh won a group 3 each. Romeo cost €240k and there's no mention of his wonder horse Vincenzo Gallilei which was the second coming at the time and cheap at half a million. Neither of the last two were bought by him.

If the only way you can prove yourself is to take a good horse from someone else and do better, then Luca Cumani is the best trainer in the world and we can just finish the conversation now. Oxx's achievement with STS doesn't compare to Cumani's handling of Falbrav, the Greek wonder horse or all the others he has imported.....if your theory holds true.

Getting back to the point of Lyons, he has enough horses bought for reasonably decent money to punch higher than group 2s if you beleive in the law of averages. Hannon may buy the out and out two year old but remember, Lyons has said the Birdcatcher is a key target for him every year.
 
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